Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
White Dwarf Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Nest
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
EN Publishing
Twitter
BlueSky
Facebook
Instagram
EN World
BlueSky
YouTube
Facebook
Twitter
Twitch
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Upgrade your account to a Community Supporter account and remove most of the site ads.
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
GM : Spellcaster Arms Race
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Quickleaf" data-source="post: 8195526" data-attributes="member: 20323"><p>Interesting question!</p><p></p><p>There's multiple things here, so that makes reducing to a "per session" estimate impossible. However, most of what you've listed falls within my personal <em>Fair Play is Foreshadowing</em> paradigm. By requiring myself – in the majority of these situations – to foreshadow these sorts of hard magical counters, it makes the challenge something the players can engage with and thinking strategically about. While I know I can do a better job with Magic Resistance (a trait common in 5e monsters and a whole other conversation), a few examples spring to mind...</p><p></p><p><strong>(1) World-building is Foreshadowing</strong></p><p>I was just asking for advice about how to run a scene where the PCs witness a NPC ruler get poisoned, and one person suggested that the ruler's throne room has a permanent <em>antimagic field </em>in effect as a defensive measure which then works against them when healers try to cast <em>lesser restoration </em>to heal the poisoning. That's a great example of world-building serving as foreshadowing which then becomes a hard magical counter.</p><p></p><p><strong>(2) Foreshadowing for Multiple Functions</strong></p><p>When I ran Tomb of Annihilation – in which Acererak has a huge magical dungeon in the jungle – I dropped multiple clues about diamond mines specifically being over-mined, extremely rare, and dwarves lamenting the long enslavement their fathers and mothers endured in the diamond mines. This helped foreshadow that Acererak had teleportation & divination countering enchantments on the dungeon... something my players were able to piece together. The scarcity of diamonds, and hence diamond dust (this was 5e where diamond dust is a material component for resurrection & greater restoration spells), also served to emphasize the deadliness of the night hag adversaries in the adventure – their maximum HP reducing Nightmare Haunting was usually curable with <em>greater restoration, </em>but with the scarcity of diamonds that made the decision to expend some to cast the spell a challenging choice.</p><p></p><p><strong>(3) Limiting Through Engaging</strong></p><p>I've been writing up a flame mage dungeon built on an old oracular sacred site, for high-level play. There's essentially ambient magic from all the training of apprentice flame mages mingling with residual magic of these elemental flame oracles. This effect is also tied to a <em>forbiddance </em>effect preventing an asuras NPC critical to the quest from entering the dungeon. This manifests as a "Counterspell Meter." Each time <em>counterspell</em> is cast in the dungeon within a 24 hour period, the caster rolls a d6. If the result is equal to or less than the number of times <em>counterspell </em>has been cast, then there is a fiery eruption at the midpoint between the countered spell and the caster of <em>counterspell, </em>and a <strong>living glitterfire </strong>manifests (a form of living spell) hostile to all creatures. Design-wise, this was as much to limit player abuse of <em>counterspell, </em>as it was to curtail multiple enemy mages stopping all PC spellcasting through sheer weight of <em>counterspells. </em>But it also engages the players in the story of this dungeon, because it can directly affect them depending on their chocies. Or at least, that's my intent! Will see how it runs in play!</p><p></p><p></p><p>I haven't done this. I'm more of a "play it where it lies" mindset, and don't think it's worth it to neuter the players' enjoyment of these sorts of loopholes. As play progresses in the long-run, I believe part of the DM's role is to present bigger and better challenges to the players, and this requires stepping up to superior play – in other words, there will be a chance down the road to challenge whatever winning strategy they've landed on today.</p><p></p><p>But I do understand why a DM might overreact, especially with certain spells... <em>Leomund's tiny hut </em>comes to mind because that spell in 5e has seen a dramatic power-up since even its powered-up appearance in 4e. The concept of the spell isn't flawed, but its execution in 5e is really bad.</p><p></p><p>I think the "this is play as intended" argument should always be open to questioning. Maybe what's intended isn't what's written. Maybe what's intended isn't right for your group.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Nah, I'm an equal opportunity rat bastard DM. I did have a night hag focus her Nightmare Haunting on the wizard PC for a couple sessions, but that was because the wizard and the paladin killed her younger sister. Whereas her older sister was married to the paladin, and declared his soul off limits for herself (long story).</p><p></p><p></p><p>I used to fudge dice when I was younger, but I guess I grew out of it. Since then I've had a lot more bad guys get wiped out in a single round by my players. But you know what? It's also made me level up my strategic & tactical thinking when it comes to D&D, and I've also gotten a lot better at knowing how to tweak monster design – when it makes sense for that monster/NPC – to account for common tactics (e.g. stun-locking comes to mind).</p><p></p><p></p><p>#1 (Preemptively using unestablished backstory or unilateral access to the offscreen) is my poison of choice. For me, it's much more of a dungeon-building or campaign-building decision, rather than a "per session" decision.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Quickleaf, post: 8195526, member: 20323"] Interesting question! There's multiple things here, so that makes reducing to a "per session" estimate impossible. However, most of what you've listed falls within my personal [I]Fair Play is Foreshadowing[/I] paradigm. By requiring myself – in the majority of these situations – to foreshadow these sorts of hard magical counters, it makes the challenge something the players can engage with and thinking strategically about. While I know I can do a better job with Magic Resistance (a trait common in 5e monsters and a whole other conversation), a few examples spring to mind... [B](1) World-building is Foreshadowing[/B] I was just asking for advice about how to run a scene where the PCs witness a NPC ruler get poisoned, and one person suggested that the ruler's throne room has a permanent [I]antimagic field [/I]in effect as a defensive measure which then works against them when healers try to cast [I]lesser restoration [/I]to heal the poisoning. That's a great example of world-building serving as foreshadowing which then becomes a hard magical counter. [B](2) Foreshadowing for Multiple Functions[/B] When I ran Tomb of Annihilation – in which Acererak has a huge magical dungeon in the jungle – I dropped multiple clues about diamond mines specifically being over-mined, extremely rare, and dwarves lamenting the long enslavement their fathers and mothers endured in the diamond mines. This helped foreshadow that Acererak had teleportation & divination countering enchantments on the dungeon... something my players were able to piece together. The scarcity of diamonds, and hence diamond dust (this was 5e where diamond dust is a material component for resurrection & greater restoration spells), also served to emphasize the deadliness of the night hag adversaries in the adventure – their maximum HP reducing Nightmare Haunting was usually curable with [I]greater restoration, [/I]but with the scarcity of diamonds that made the decision to expend some to cast the spell a challenging choice. [B](3) Limiting Through Engaging[/B] I've been writing up a flame mage dungeon built on an old oracular sacred site, for high-level play. There's essentially ambient magic from all the training of apprentice flame mages mingling with residual magic of these elemental flame oracles. This effect is also tied to a [I]forbiddance [/I]effect preventing an asuras NPC critical to the quest from entering the dungeon. This manifests as a "Counterspell Meter." Each time [I]counterspell[/I] is cast in the dungeon within a 24 hour period, the caster rolls a d6. If the result is equal to or less than the number of times [I]counterspell [/I]has been cast, then there is a fiery eruption at the midpoint between the countered spell and the caster of [I]counterspell, [/I]and a [B]living glitterfire [/B]manifests (a form of living spell) hostile to all creatures. Design-wise, this was as much to limit player abuse of [I]counterspell, [/I]as it was to curtail multiple enemy mages stopping all PC spellcasting through sheer weight of [I]counterspells. [/I]But it also engages the players in the story of this dungeon, because it can directly affect them depending on their chocies. Or at least, that's my intent! Will see how it runs in play! I haven't done this. I'm more of a "play it where it lies" mindset, and don't think it's worth it to neuter the players' enjoyment of these sorts of loopholes. As play progresses in the long-run, I believe part of the DM's role is to present bigger and better challenges to the players, and this requires stepping up to superior play – in other words, there will be a chance down the road to challenge whatever winning strategy they've landed on today. But I do understand why a DM might overreact, especially with certain spells... [I]Leomund's tiny hut [/I]comes to mind because that spell in 5e has seen a dramatic power-up since even its powered-up appearance in 4e. The concept of the spell isn't flawed, but its execution in 5e is really bad. I think the "this is play as intended" argument should always be open to questioning. Maybe what's intended isn't what's written. Maybe what's intended isn't right for your group. Nah, I'm an equal opportunity rat bastard DM. I did have a night hag focus her Nightmare Haunting on the wizard PC for a couple sessions, but that was because the wizard and the paladin killed her younger sister. Whereas her older sister was married to the paladin, and declared his soul off limits for herself (long story). I used to fudge dice when I was younger, but I guess I grew out of it. Since then I've had a lot more bad guys get wiped out in a single round by my players. But you know what? It's also made me level up my strategic & tactical thinking when it comes to D&D, and I've also gotten a lot better at knowing how to tweak monster design – when it makes sense for that monster/NPC – to account for common tactics (e.g. stun-locking comes to mind). #1 (Preemptively using unestablished backstory or unilateral access to the offscreen) is my poison of choice. For me, it's much more of a dungeon-building or campaign-building decision, rather than a "per session" decision. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
GM : Spellcaster Arms Race
Top