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Message: <blockquote data-quote="hawkeyefan" data-source="post: 8989627" data-attributes="member: 6785785">My point here was that, when it comes to long-term payoffs, a variety of media can achieve that kind of thing. But most media don't allow for the kind of input that players have in an RPG. So, no matter what, that's something more unique to RPGs than a long-term payoff. I don't think that every instance of a long-term payoff is an instance of subverting player agency, but I think it's very likely. I mean, it's almost a given... if you plan thing X to happen in year 4 of a campaign, then you very likely have to steer toward that event. Is long term payoff a quality of preparation or of play? If it's a quality of preparation, then it's predetermined. It's self-evident. I don't agree with your use of metagaming here. I think it's the game. My counter-example was more about procedures, with tables being only one such example. You complained that it was too broad, so I offered a more specific example, but there are of course other procedures besides random tables. There are also going to be elements that help constrain the GM's decision making... the setting, genre, what's already been established in play, and so on... these things are always going to impact play, unless a given game actively tries to eschew that kind of thing. This is not at all unique to traditional games. What games do you mean here specifically? Can you provide any examples? I reject your use of "illusionism" here. I don't think the criticism you're making is all that rational. You're basically claiming that improvisational means of play like story-now or no-myth are always GM controlled railroads, and that high prep trad play is the only way to grant player agency. It seems... skewed. Again, offer some examples.</blockquote>

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