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<blockquote data-quote="Tony Vargas" data-source="post: 7614633" data-attributes="member: 996">Oh, wow, /old/-timer.&nbsp; You can't get much older school than that without having been in Gary's basement. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink&nbsp; &nbsp; ;)"&nbsp; data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />&nbsp;These days we dignify that as &quot;acquiring system mastery.&quot;&nbsp; &nbsp;I vividly recall the first time a GM deviated noticeably from that style.&nbsp; It was 1984.&nbsp; He was running Champions!&nbsp; -&nbsp; definitely a game where the players invest a lot of time &amp; effort into creating their characters.I had never really thought about that correlation, though, maybe because I had always put a surprising amount of time &amp; effort into my D&amp;D characters.&nbsp; It was a revelation, though.&nbsp;It is not a vanished playstyle, though maybe not a great one to wean newbies on.&nbsp; But you definitely still see traces of it, not in folks advocating for the style openly (OK, maybe sometimes), but in threads like this one, &quot;Challenging the Player&quot; and anytime 'immersion' and 'verisimilitude' and the like show up.The old trick of skilled DMing vs skilled play, when the DM carefully describes an area or situation in a way that subtlety telegraphs the danger - like one of those nasty little Greek prophecies that becomes all too clear once it's too late - the fiendish glee of pulling it off, or the rare thrill of figuring it out just in time.Perception &amp; Search and Sense Motive and the like just take that and kill it dead.Mind you, unless everyone at the table absolutely loves that style, it's dysfunctional as can be.&nbsp; But it's still a source of fun that has been designed out of the system over time.&nbsp; You want to get it back, you have to find some high-falut'n excuse for bringing resolution back to player skill, and denying access to whole swaths of mechanics.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Tony Vargas, post: 7614633, member: 996"] Oh, wow, /old/-timer. You can't get much older school than that without having been in Gary's basement. ;) These days we dignify that as "acquiring system mastery." I vividly recall the first time a GM deviated noticeably from that style. It was 1984. He was running Champions! - definitely a game where the players invest a lot of time & effort into creating their characters. I had never really thought about that correlation, though, maybe because I had always put a surprising amount of time & effort into my D&D characters. It was a revelation, though. It is not a vanished playstyle, though maybe not a great one to wean newbies on. But you definitely still see traces of it, not in folks advocating for the style openly (OK, maybe sometimes), but in threads like this one, "Challenging the Player" and anytime 'immersion' and 'verisimilitude' and the like show up. The old trick of skilled DMing vs skilled play, when the DM carefully describes an area or situation in a way that subtlety telegraphs the danger - like one of those nasty little Greek prophecies that becomes all too clear once it's too late - the fiendish glee of pulling it off, or the rare thrill of figuring it out just in time. Perception & Search and Sense Motive and the like just take that and kill it dead. Mind you, unless everyone at the table absolutely loves that style, it's dysfunctional as can be. But it's still a source of fun that has been designed out of the system over time. You want to get it back, you have to find some high-falut'n excuse for bringing resolution back to player skill, and denying access to whole swaths of mechanics. [/QUOTE]

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