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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Dungeonosophy" data-source="post: 8529839" data-attributes="member: 6688049">Great article. Boldly includes some reasonable head canon, which WotC would do well to consider.A couple of points: in some sense it’s true that Gygax took the Tokienian goblin whole cloth. But Gygax always kind of flattened the Tokienian source, intentionally or unintentionally giving it his own North American-ish, materialized/quantified gamist stamp.We all know that Tolkienian goblins /orcs were once Elves and/or Men. This tragic origin didn’t really find its way into D&D till now.Also: Faramir honestly said that he would not lie to a orc. Which shows that these beings are worth not lying to.There are several sources that went into forming Tolkien's orcs/goblins, besides English folklore:1) Victorian literary tales, which though based on folklore, are modern “bourgeois “ dainty nice-ifications. Tolkien’s early conception of goblins was dainty. He wrote a poem about cutesy wee goblins. He later explicitly expressed distaste for this source (and his own poem); but it was part of the process of coming to LotR style orcs.2) War experiences. In one early note (WW1 era), he equated Germans with goblins/orcs. (!) This was later mollified by his stated remorse for the destruction of Germany.3) Theosophical and Anthroposophic (Steinerian/Barfieldian) esoteric stories about the “evil race” of fallen humanity which results from the biblical separation of the “goats” from the “sheep.” 4) The Anglo-Saxon conception of “orcneas” demons, from the Beowulf era.These four sources played a role in shaping Tolkienian goblins/orcs, in addition to the traditional English folkloric sources. These aspects didn’t really make the leap into the Gygaxian conception either.Also: a point of clarity about the words “goblin” and “orc” in Tolkien. It’s not quite right to say that “goblin” was the human term, contrasted with “orc”. Both are “translations” into English of the same word in the Westron (Common) language: the “prehistoric“ language of the Red Book of Westmarch which Tolkien “found” and “translated” into English.It’s just that Tolkien used a more childish sounding English word in The Hobbit, as a children's book. And then settled on “orc” in the LotR. (He also only figured out the “translation” scheme retroactively, after he’d already written The Hobbit.) And in the LotR, he wanted to get further away from the dainty Victorian connotations of “goblin”.Anyway, great article!</blockquote>

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