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Message: <blockquote data-quote="painandgreed" data-source="post: 2880314" data-attributes="member: 24969">First, I don't use the great wheel. A mage could still use the great wheel to explain the various planes to people in layman's terms and be correct, but the gods do not live on the outer planes. All my homebrew campaign's dieties live on a spiritual twin plane of the material one and they are permananetly connected like the two sides of a coin. It is possible to travel from one to the other but it is usually dangerous and those going either way need to be cautious. These dieties are actual entities who can die although typically only at the hands of another diety in the spirtual plane. If they materialize on the mortal plane, they are typically of an epic level plus divine ranks, and open themselves up to being killed permanently evn by a mortal. Thus, most dieties operate only through clerics except in what may be the most dire or reckless of circumstance.Similarly, demonlords and the like are probably of low to mid epic levels with divine ranks if they assume control of a plane. How one obtains contrl of a plane is dependant on the nature of the plane. Some may not have controlers. Even if they are the controlers of the plane, they may not be the highest CR on the plane and i don't see that as a problem even in CE planes. I'm sure Stalin, Hitler, and Pol Pot all had people working under them that cold have beat them in personal combat. If for not other reason than, some high CR entities will not want to put themselves in such a postion to become a target. Leadership of most planes, including the Abyss and Hells, is more a matter of orgnization, networking, deals, bribes, and alliances than personal combat. Those who can organize and command large groups of troops will over come those who canonly fight one other persna t a time. PCs will probably never enter into combat with such any more than the front line soldier would end up fighting Hitler during WW2.CRs for all would probably be from 21-40. I have a 35 level lich which I find about ridiculous but needs about that many levels for him to have all the feats I want him to have and he is older than some of the gods in my homebrew. So seeing him equal to or even slightly greater than the major dieties on the mortal plane is not out of line.</blockquote>

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