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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Lancelot" data-source="post: 5210831" data-attributes="member: 30022">If only it was good artwork of scantily-clad females. Some of the black-and-white pieces are quite nice, but the "Poser" color 3d stuff is... uhh... a little too exaggerated for my tastes.As for the original topic, I think demigods and deities can be done right. Count me in the group that thinks that gods can and sometimes should be fought. That's a classic fantasy trope. It should be appropriately Epic (i.e. not just another "tough monster"), but there's a place for having some options in that area.For my money, both 2e (heresy!) and 4e got it "right" with deity stats.1e: Although I dearly love my 1e copy of Deities and Demigods, the powers included therein were largely just monsters to be whacked by an uber-party. Zeus's 400hp aren't going to be helping him much when the fighter's vorpal sword goes "snicker-snack".2e: ...introduced Avatars. It did away with fighting gods directly, and instead had parties fighting their "mortal form". Cool idea. The stat blocks were relatively short, but most Avatars had a couple of funky powers and weren't pushovers by any stretch of the imagination. Shame you couldn't fight the big boys themselves, but this was a nice compromise.3e: What a mess (and this is coming from someone who loved 3e). Avatars were downgraded to Aspects, and were weak-sauce. Check out the Miniatures Handbook, for example. I never agreed with the idea that being able to fight Demogorgon at 10th level was a cool thing. It takes away some of the majesty and power of these entities. And then, the deities themselves were terrible. Stat blocks that sprawled over pages... 95% of which was completely useless. Who cares that Thor has +23 Use Rope skill (+25 with bindings)? Who cares that Vecna can cast flare 3/day? And why even include the greater gods? They always maximize their dice rolls, and were out of reach of even the lesser gods in a fight. At that point, you should just go back to the 2e days - you can't fight them, period.4e: Massive improvement. Gods are high Epic-level opponents. Unlike 1e, you can't even hurt them unless you're also Epic-level, and they are murderously difficult to beat unless you're close to 30th level yourself. Further, they can't actually be killed unless you perform a series of Epic-level quests. This means they're something other than just a "tough monster". The stat blocks are much more concise, and carry a real sense of who the deity is and what they can do. Compare Lolth (in MM3) or Tiamat or Torog with any of the 3e deities from Deities and Demigods. It's enough to make you wonder why they even tried in 3e.I think the only way to do Deities and Demigods right in 3.5e is to drastically overhaul the stat block, remove 90% of their abilities and skills (they're deities, for heaven's sake - just worry about the 5 things that set them apart from every other god), and either just focus on the demigods / lesser gods... or go back to the 2e days of fighting their Avatars, rather than the actual deity.[disclaimer: all personal opinion... many things in 1e and 3e that are superior to other versions (not gods, though)... etc, etc...]</blockquote>

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