Gods, paladin, and clerics.

[Cartigan Mrryl]

Heya everybody. Alright, I started this thread in regards to a problem with a certain paladin mercilessly beating a halfling prisoner to death. I would like to know how DMs deal with certain... justifiable actions that a paladin could possibly do. I deal with them in this way:
At creation, I not only make a Paladin choose a God(I make almost everyone who doesn't specifically choose to NOT worship a God to choose one), I also make him choose ONE domain from that God's profile. He mainly has to life by those standards (if he chooses Protection as his domain, he's obligated to defend those who can't defend themselves. War would make him seek out evil and destroy it.) I've also added a few new domains: Wrath, Righteous Fury, Judgement, and Indignation. Obviously, Wrath is a Blackguard one but yeah... I also made God's who sympathize with Paladins (Either because they were a mortal once themselves or are sympathetic with the position. For instance, Volark, God of Righteous Fury and Oaths.
A paladin in my game (the group comprised of slightly lower level fighters(2), a ranger, and a sorceror) He swore an oath to... I think it was St. Cuthbert? To protect them all and not let any danger come to them. They were attacked by a large group of Orcs (the ones they were hunting had gone for reinforcements.) and the rest of the group slowly died... it was almsot funny, yet sad at the time. There were approximately 14 or 15 orcs against the 5 of them. He was up front and doing well, the fighters were buffed by the sorceror and the ranger was picking off the orcs with a magical bow he had "found" (I called it Orcslayer.. oddly it changed hands rather quickly, I think that a fighter in one of my campaigns have it now.[Note: i should probably rename it the "Dead Man's Bow"... to anyone who knows the series of a similar name...]). When they seemed to be winning, I rolled a critical with an orc fighting one of the weaker fighters... -15 and he was dead. The other fighter fell via overrunning and the paladin ended up having to pull back. It was all falling apart when he and the Ranger held back the orcs while the sorceror, low on spells, flung her last remaining spells and then flung stones. 5 orcs left... ranger falls to ANOTHER critical and the orcs, hungry for blood, run past the paladin and to the sorceror, who doesn't stand much of a chance.
Mr. Paladin, I think his name was Alduuran, was rightly P.O'ed so what happened is the paladin was strong enough to kill off the remaining orcs. He healed himself whatever he could, then he hurried on his way to the orcs encampment. His player was hurting from the failed Oath, so he decided his character snapped and rushed the base. Women and children were all the was left, maybe a few juvenile orcs, but nothing anywhere near a challenge. He killed ALL of them. It was sad. He knew he had lost his paladin-hood and he really liked playing as a Paladin, he was always the paladin, cleric, or a righteous fighter, always anti-evil. So what ended up happening was he could feel himself losing his Gods grace but then an avatar of Volark appeared and "passed along his God's sympathy" and told him that his God would be happy to take the Semi-Paladin under his wings. He picked a new domain (surprise, surprise, Righteous Fury) and lost a few levels of paladin (I replaced them with Fighter... no class abilities or such, just the levels (to show the loss of Paladin holy-strength) and as he's a new paladin of Volark, I gave him Volark's abilities (A very nice Righteous Anger ability [think Rage, except not quite as long lasting] and a Godly Enervation ability [ doesn't lose consciousness at 0 HP]) so he became a new paladin. He continued his adventures and ACTUALLY retired... this in a DM's game who shows next to NO mercy with his players characters.

 

[Cartigan Mrryl]

Oops... can a Moderator get rid of THIS copy??? PLEASE?

 

[Thia Halmades]

Holding the Paladin to the tenets of their Deity is reasonable. I constantly feel like I'm the wrong person to get involved in these discussions, because my view is black & white. I've read the thread on the General Board and contributed to it; it's 505 or something (on page 10) and you can flip to it if you like. Look for the wolf statue. But the answer to your question (if such a question was asked) is simply, what to do in this situation?

Far as I'm concerned, the player handled it perfectly. He failed, he knew he failed, he went full bore and said "Eff it. If I'm going, they're coming with me." He snapped. TOTALLY COOL with the snapping, it's the tragic side of the character. No one can be that good, all the time. And enough stress means eventually you'll freak. I might've allowed a Will Save to avoid it, or allow the PC to be 'aware' of what he was doing in character, but the way you retell it, the character knew full well what was happening.

Bravo.

You chose (or the DM chose) in this campaign to reward that hot RP session with a full blown recovery, intervention by another deity, and an Atonement granted by the Divine Itself. Again, I must say.

Bravo.

This adheres pretty much to what I usually say about Paladins; it isn't "WWGD" or even "WWSMD" - it's "What's right, in your world view, and what is within the bounds of the law?" Lawful. That to me means caring about society, and upholding the standards of society. It means that by doing so, you protect others by living your life to the standard you set. You don't "go around" your code to cut down the BBEG when you can't catch him red-handed. It isn't done. This is one of the great RP conflicts of the Paladin. They have the ability to Smite Evil, but doing the Smiting isn't always Lawful. Shoot, it isn't always Good, either.

Good means keeping the peace, protecting the innocent, etc. It means, generally, your opponent should have a weapon in his hand and see you coming (honor code). I've made (and won) plenty of arguments over what constitutes being both Lawful (upholding the literal law) and Good (murdering evil doers to protect others from their predations). Are these Paladin behaviors? Depends on the Deity, and it depends on the DM. Some will rule "Yes," in a heart beat. I rule "no."

My Paladins live in a black & white world. There's good, there's evil, and there's the Empire. Evil in the Empire is handled as best as possible. Because Paladins are generally part of the military, which is connected to the theocracy, they're assigned to empty raiding camps, hunt down villains (bounty hunting Paladins. Yes.) and bring them to justice. Justice doesn't mean murder. It means 'Justice within the bounds of the law.'

But for every DM, there are multiple answers, and multiple scenarios. Did the Paladin in the former thread kill a Halfling? Yep. Was he evil? We don't know that; he may have been coerced, he may have been charmed, he may have just been the messenger. But he's dead now, and he wasn't the main threat. That act was neither Lawful nor Good, and I would have ruled immediate, lightning bolt style revocation.

But that's me.

 

[Nyaricus]

Thia, could you copy and paste this into the other copy of this thread > this is a double-post. Then we will have one thread, and not two (remember the half orc one )