Going REALLY Rules-lite

[Ry]

I like the idea of the core mechanic of C&C, but something's still not quite right. Although I need sleep badly, I also need to jot these down.

Here's what I want to do:

1. The core mechanic becomes d20 + ability modifier + (class modifier if appropriate) (+ other modifiers) versus DC to achieve result.

Class modifier starts at 4 for level 1, and goes up 1 every level.

2. Bring Attacking, Defending, Causing/Resisting Damage, Saving / Beating Enemy Saves, and Skills under (1). (Players roll all the dice).

3. Classes are defined as collections of skills where the class modifier applies, and special class abilities gained at various levels. Weapon groups will be skills for attacking, armor types will be skills for defending.

4. Multi-class characters are discouraged (far easier to make a new base class), but they could get synergies the way you'd expect (Fighter 3 / Rogue 1 has a Class Modifier of +6 for Long Blades, +4 for Sneaking, and +7 for Short Blades).

5. Some class abilities are the same as feats, others are bonuses. For example, the Fighter will get attack bonuses to keep himself ahead of the pack (so a Fighter who specializes in Long Blades will have certain advantages over a Paladin who happens to use Long Blades).

6. "Feats" will be options, but options that clearly make the characters more powerful. They would be included to add customization, and would either bring new things under the class modifier's jurisdiction, give a new ability, or give a special bonus to certain actions.

Besides the loads of writing I'd have to do, suggestions/problems/pitfalls?

 

[Turanil]

Looks good at first read. Nonetheless it would be easier to review the idea if you could present two or three classes (basic archetypes: wizard, fighter, rogue). Also what about the combat system? Would it be simplified to resemble that of C&C (no attacks of opportunities or combat grid)?

I think I will today check with the FLGS to see if they have C&C PHB and Blue Rose...

 

[Ry]

Oh, I'll get to that shortly. But since Causing/Resisting damage is on my above list, I think I'll need a non-hp system for that, and I'm looking at some variants on that before I try to balance the classes. When I do, I'll try to give 10 level versions of Fighters, Theives, and Sorcerers.

 

[Quickleaf]

Here's the damage rules from Blue Rose (Green Ronin). I slightly edited is to make the DC for recovering from severe wounds more difficult. (it's a pdf)

If you want a really great alternate weapon proficiency system, check out woodelf's rules, which are posted on these boards.

I like the idea of simplifying rolls - combat is way to slow as the core rules stand, and looking up stuff in scattered tables is a pain. I think if you could consolidate all of a player's actions in combat into 1-2 rolls (attacking, defending, dealing damage, manuevers, resisting damage, everything!) and could make all your tables fit on 2 pages, you'd really have something great to offer, and I think most GMs would be interested.

As for the re-writes you suggest, changing BAB into a skill mechanic is an easy house rule, and a good idea. I personally don't like the idea of pre-determining where a PC's skill points go -- it makes classes stifling rather than inspiring.

 

[Ry]

Still looking at my ideas - the big hole in this approach is that it's all or nothing - which really hurts in the damage mechanic. IE The fighter gets better and better at hitting and damaging, but the mage doesn't ever get even a little bit better at soaking up damage.

 

[Ry]

To resolve the problem above, there's going to have to be a cross-class mechanic.

So there are two class modifiers in the mix: the 3+level one, and half that.

The actual effects of armor will have be built into the damage-resistance rolls, rather than the to-hit rolls.

Shields will help the avoiding-hit rolls.

What I'm thinking of for the Fighter:

Fighter Class Skills: 4 Weapon Groups (any), 2 Defense Groups (any), Fortitude saves, Resisting Damage.
Fighter Cross-class: All other weapon groups, all other defense groups

Level 1 Benefits: Shield Proficiency, Weapon Focus (+2 to a weapon's hit rolls).
Level 2 Benefits: Favored Defense Group (+2 to a defense group)

Level 4 Benefits: Weapon Specialization (+2 to a weapon's damage rolls)

Hmmm...

 

[Ry]

Okay, time for some clarifications for the naming conventions. Since there's no seperate skill system, I'm going to use the term "Rank" to stand for the "class modifier" from above.

Those Blue-Rose damage rules look like almost exactly what I'm looking for. Just have to figure out how to map them to a d20-actions based damage mechanic.

Actions are divided into 3 types: "Rank," "Half-rank", and "Non-rank"

Rank actions get the full class modifier (4 at level 1, 5 at level 2, 6 at level 3, etc.)
Half-rank actions get half the class bonus (rounded down)
Non-rank actions get no class bonus.

All actions get the Ability modifier.

Converting Standard Classes to this format:

You'll be making two lists: Rank and Non-Rank

Hit Dice:
d10 or better gives Resisting Damage at Rank.
d8 gives Resisting Damage at Rank if the class also has good Fort saves, otherwise d8 grants Resisting Damage at Half-Rank.
d6 or worse gives Resisting Damage at Half-Rank.

Class Skills:
Actions for Class Skills are all done at Rank.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency:
Martial Weapon Proficiency: 4 weapon groups at Rank, the rest at Half-Rank
Simple Weapon Proficiency: Simple weapons at Rank, 1 other at Half-Rank

Heavy Armor Proficiency: 3 defense groups (Heavy, Medium, Light, Unarmored) at Rank, the remaining one at Half-Rank
Medium Armor Proficiency: 2 defense groups (Medium, Light, Unarmored) at Rank, the remaining one at Half-Rank.
Light Armor Proficiency: 1 defense group (Light or Unarmored) at Rank, the other at Half-Rank.
No Armor Proficiency: None defense group at Half-Rank

Saves:
Good saves at Rank, Poor saves at Half-Rank.

Base Attack Bonus:
If the highest (as Fighter), then upgrade a single weapon group to Rank.
If the lowest (as Wizard), then downgrade all weapon groups to Half-Rank.

(Also might give an extra benefit for good BABs, I haven't decided yet).

Class Features and Class-Granted Feats:
Class-granted feats and abilities will be dealt with following this model. They either

• Make something Non-Rank into Half-Rank
• Make something Half-Rank into Rank
• Get a +2 bonus to something already at Rank
• Upgrade an At Rank's +2 bonus to a +3 bonus
• Upgrade an at Rank bonus from +3 to +4.
• Give a +4 bonus to a roll in a particular circumstance

Anything not covered here will probably use C&C as a model.

Spells:
Haven't decided; I'd like to use a skill-based magic system (keeps it closer to the core mechanic), but I might go for C&C as the model.

 

[Ry]

Some of the Class Features can be used practically as-is - example, Paladins getting Charisma for saves, Bards giving +1s, and Barbarians' Rage abilities.

 

[Ry]

I'd really like to put the "how much damage mechanic" into the to-hit mechanic, which means degrees of success in attack actions. The big question is whether resisting/shrugging off damage will still be an action, or if that needs to be expressed through something more like hit points.

Armor is the big conundrum here - since both attack and defense largely keep pace with level under this system, the differences between armor types need to be expressed outside of the to-hit mechanic (vis, the damage mechanic).

 

[Ry]

If I can possibly avoid it, I'd like there NOT to be a second roll after the attack (for damage). This second roll is one of the biggest ways that combat gets bogged down compared to the non-d20 rules light stuff I've done before. This probably doesn't make sense to anyone, but the fact that Blue Rose changes the work from hitpoints and damage rolls for the attacker, to conditions and damage rolls for the defender, doesn't quite address that.