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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 4933736" data-attributes="member: 4937">Why aren't those just spells?It sounds like a snarky question, and I apologize, but I find the accumulation of a fixed list of abilities to be an extremely inelegant design for a base class.&nbsp; It seems to me that the ability to breathe underwater, see in low light, to acquire the scent extraordinary ability, and to grow wings are all simply one sort of customized spell list.&nbsp; This character has on his spell list the 0th level spell, 'low light vision', the first level spell 'scent', and the 3rd level spells 'bird's flight' and 'water breathing'.&nbsp;&nbsp; But if breathing water or flying like a bird doesn't fit the conception of this character (he's a desert shaman specializing in lizard, sand, and fire magic), then why saddle the character class with a bunch of choices that the character doesn't want?&nbsp; If you really must have a character with innate ability to do this or that, give the class the ability to every couple of levels select a spell from its spell list that targets self that automatically has enhanced duration (minutes per level rather than rounds per level or hours per level rather than 10 minutes per level).&nbsp; Or create feats that say something like, 'If you have 'scent' on your spell list, you can cast it as a quickened spell-like ability 3 times per day.', or 'If you have 'spider climb' on your spell list, you can cast it as a quickened spell-like ability 3 times per day.'.&nbsp;&nbsp; So long as the spell in the feat is more flavor and simple utility than broken part of a tactical combo, a feat like that should be balanced while providing alot of color and flexibility in character creation.&nbsp; It's also less likely to be a problem than any character power that is limited only by endurance.The important thing I think is to create one class that does all the jobs you want, rather than needing a half dozen or more different base classes just to fill different 'talks to spirits and works magic' roles.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 4933736, member: 4937"] Why aren't those just spells? It sounds like a snarky question, and I apologize, but I find the accumulation of a fixed list of abilities to be an extremely inelegant design for a base class. It seems to me that the ability to breathe underwater, see in low light, to acquire the scent extraordinary ability, and to grow wings are all simply one sort of customized spell list. This character has on his spell list the 0th level spell, 'low light vision', the first level spell 'scent', and the 3rd level spells 'bird's flight' and 'water breathing'. But if breathing water or flying like a bird doesn't fit the conception of this character (he's a desert shaman specializing in lizard, sand, and fire magic), then why saddle the character class with a bunch of choices that the character doesn't want? If you really must have a character with innate ability to do this or that, give the class the ability to every couple of levels select a spell from its spell list that targets self that automatically has enhanced duration (minutes per level rather than rounds per level or hours per level rather than 10 minutes per level). Or create feats that say something like, 'If you have 'scent' on your spell list, you can cast it as a quickened spell-like ability 3 times per day.', or 'If you have 'spider climb' on your spell list, you can cast it as a quickened spell-like ability 3 times per day.'. So long as the spell in the feat is more flavor and simple utility than broken part of a tactical combo, a feat like that should be balanced while providing alot of color and flexibility in character creation. It's also less likely to be a problem than any character power that is limited only by endurance. The important thing I think is to create one class that does all the jobs you want, rather than needing a half dozen or more different base classes just to fill different 'talks to spirits and works magic' roles. [/QUOTE]

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