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Good and bad things that a Good/Evil character would do
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<blockquote data-quote="John Morrow" data-source="post: 1915237" data-attributes="member: 27012"><p>You don't have to use any real society. You use the definition in the Player's Handbook or d20 SRD. Specifically, from the d20 SRD:</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>That's a quite functional objective definition.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>In D&D, alignment is treated like color or shape. It's just another trait that living creatures have and it's entirely objective, not subjective. One can look at the grass and see that it's "green". One can do a Detect Evil on a Goblin and see that it's "Evil". It's not culture dependent any more than the color of grass is.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Alignments fail when the players or GM attempt to use them in a relative way rather than an absolute way because that's now how they are designed to be used. Yes, I know that the idea of absolute morality grates on the modern sensibilities of people used to looking at the world through a morally relative lens. Simiilarly, the idea that a creature can be inherently Evil grates on the modern sensibilities of people used to thinking that bad people learn to be bad and aren't born that way. But D&D is designed to reflect the older world view of a lot of historical mythology and fantasy -- a world view where morality is absolute and creatures can be evil by Nature. You don't have to believe that things work that way in the real world to use them in D&D, any more than you need to believe that people can levitate in the air by waving their hands and speaking a few magic words.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>If you don't believe that Good, Evil, Law, or Chaos can be defined in an absolute sense (despite the fact that the SRD and Player's Handbook do just that), then you aren't going to like alignment. Those things mean something very specific in D&D and what they mean is pretty functionally defined.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I think your problem is that you expect the D&D alignments to be true in a real world that you prefer to see in morally relative terms. In the D&D setting, one need only do the proper Detect spells to answer the philosophers' questions. D&D is a fantasy game and you don't have to like the definitions or their nuances in order to use them. </p><p></p><p>In fact, in D&D terms, a lot of real people are simply Neutral and not Good, even if they think of themselves as Good. And in D&D terms, if someone is Not Good, they are not necessarily Evil. They may simply be Neutral. Similarly, if they are Not Evil, they may not be Good. They may simply be Neutral. A lot of the world is simply Neutral and being Neutral is not being Evil. It's simply not being Good, either.</p><p></p><p>Animals are Neutral in D&D and Neutral simply means that one acts out of self interest and personal relationships. Lots of people behave this way, too. Good, in D&D, implies altruism while Evil, in D&D, implies cruelty. The Good character goes out of their way to help others, perhaps to the detriment of themselves. The Evil character goes out of their way to harm others, perhaps to the detriment of themselves. The Neutral character will help or harm others for a reason, but will not go out of the way to do either because of the light or darkness in their heart. In fact, think of "Neutral" as "Pragmatic" and it works pretty well.</p><p></p><p>A morally relative world view seeks to define everyone as Good by their own standards. That's now how D&D works. D&D defines Good as something very specific. To repeat:</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>If you aren't out there making personal sacrifices to help others, don't respect life, and don't have a concern for the dignity of sentient beings, then you aren't Good in D&D terms. You might <em>think</em> you of yourself as a Good person and might be able to justify your behavior to yourself or others. But in the objective and absolute alignment of D&D, you are not Good. You are probably just Neutral.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>And that is where I think Law, Neutrality, and Chaos on the other Axis come in...</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="John Morrow, post: 1915237, member: 27012"] You don't have to use any real society. You use the definition in the Player's Handbook or d20 SRD. Specifically, from the d20 SRD: That's a quite functional objective definition. In D&D, alignment is treated like color or shape. It's just another trait that living creatures have and it's entirely objective, not subjective. One can look at the grass and see that it's "green". One can do a Detect Evil on a Goblin and see that it's "Evil". It's not culture dependent any more than the color of grass is. Alignments fail when the players or GM attempt to use them in a relative way rather than an absolute way because that's now how they are designed to be used. Yes, I know that the idea of absolute morality grates on the modern sensibilities of people used to looking at the world through a morally relative lens. Simiilarly, the idea that a creature can be inherently Evil grates on the modern sensibilities of people used to thinking that bad people learn to be bad and aren't born that way. But D&D is designed to reflect the older world view of a lot of historical mythology and fantasy -- a world view where morality is absolute and creatures can be evil by Nature. You don't have to believe that things work that way in the real world to use them in D&D, any more than you need to believe that people can levitate in the air by waving their hands and speaking a few magic words. If you don't believe that Good, Evil, Law, or Chaos can be defined in an absolute sense (despite the fact that the SRD and Player's Handbook do just that), then you aren't going to like alignment. Those things mean something very specific in D&D and what they mean is pretty functionally defined. I think your problem is that you expect the D&D alignments to be true in a real world that you prefer to see in morally relative terms. In the D&D setting, one need only do the proper Detect spells to answer the philosophers' questions. D&D is a fantasy game and you don't have to like the definitions or their nuances in order to use them. In fact, in D&D terms, a lot of real people are simply Neutral and not Good, even if they think of themselves as Good. And in D&D terms, if someone is Not Good, they are not necessarily Evil. They may simply be Neutral. Similarly, if they are Not Evil, they may not be Good. They may simply be Neutral. A lot of the world is simply Neutral and being Neutral is not being Evil. It's simply not being Good, either. Animals are Neutral in D&D and Neutral simply means that one acts out of self interest and personal relationships. Lots of people behave this way, too. Good, in D&D, implies altruism while Evil, in D&D, implies cruelty. The Good character goes out of their way to help others, perhaps to the detriment of themselves. The Evil character goes out of their way to harm others, perhaps to the detriment of themselves. The Neutral character will help or harm others for a reason, but will not go out of the way to do either because of the light or darkness in their heart. In fact, think of "Neutral" as "Pragmatic" and it works pretty well. A morally relative world view seeks to define everyone as Good by their own standards. That's now how D&D works. D&D defines Good as something very specific. To repeat: If you aren't out there making personal sacrifices to help others, don't respect life, and don't have a concern for the dignity of sentient beings, then you aren't Good in D&D terms. You might [i]think[/i] you of yourself as a Good person and might be able to justify your behavior to yourself or others. But in the objective and absolute alignment of D&D, you are not Good. You are probably just Neutral. And that is where I think Law, Neutrality, and Chaos on the other Axis come in... [/QUOTE]
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