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Message: <blockquote data-quote="ECMO3" data-source="post: 8614790" data-attributes="member: 7030563">I would not call either of these spells game changers.Something like upcast cause fear targeting 3 enemies is generally going to be as effective at control as hypnotic pattern because it will last longer, it is easier to target multiple enemies (especially with allies engaged) and it is impossible to shake off without a save.  It is not as debilitating the first round, but it is better after the first round.There are other spells that are game changers at 3rd level (Fly, Counterspell, Thunder Step, Fear).  These would be better examples I think, but even then you have to look at the totality of what you are getting vs what you ar elosing.You also need to consider your ability scores to really make a comparison.  If you are sporting a 13 Charisma for example, any of those control spells are going to be largely useless.Finally keep in mind QS is extremely effective on a Gish allowing something like Blur, PEG, invisibility or mirror image while still getting an action.  By this I am saying other classes will often get more out of the action then the sorcerer will.Revivify is a game changer if you have the material component for it and that is a legit reason to always take level 5 in cleric.You can do spirit guardian type damage without spirit guardians though.  Upcast spiritual weapon and attack cantrips will beat it for the first several turns and come close to matching after that.  You control who you damage and you don't have to hold concentration.And he can often pick up a cantrip that makes up for this or an ability like sneak attack or martial arts that makes up for some of it.And he doesn't have spells like Shield, Absorb Elements or Find Familiar.  Moreover Dissonent Whispers upcasts very well.Extra attack only increases a Monk's damage potential by 50% due to martial arts and only by 33% if you consider flurry of blows.   Stunning strike is a substantial boost, but then so are a lot of things you get with some classes at 1st level as well (like martial weapon proficiency for example).As an example a 4/1 Monk/Undead Warlock does less damage but he also has form of dread that makes him immune to fear and lets him frighten an enemy he hits in combat every turn.  Is one more weapon attack better than frightening an enemy every turn?   In some cases yes, in some cases no, but he can also pick up Hex as one of his spells (and booming blade as a cantrip) and close quite a bit of that damage gap, if not all of it.</blockquote>

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