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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Jack Simth" data-source="post: 3780984" data-attributes="member: 29252">A bit abusive, yes.  DMG NPC Barbarian-5 has 43 HP, 18 AC, +2 Initiative, Greataxe +10 (1d12+4); when Raging, that's 53 HP, 16 AC, +2 Initiative, Greataxe +12 (1d12+7).Meanwhile, the Natural Bonded Ape with Leather Barding gets 42 HP, AC 19, +3 Initiative, 2 claws +9 melee (1d6+6) and bite +4 melee (1d6+3).Ignoring crits...The Raging Barbarian-5 hits the Ape on a roll of 7, for an average damage per hit of 13.5; average of 9.45 damage per round.  The Ape goes down in about 4.44 rounds in a slugfest.The Ape hits the Raging Barbarian on a rolls of 7 (left claw)/7 (right claw)/12 (bite), dealing an average of 9.5/9.5/6.5 on each hit; average damage per round on a full attack of 16.225 damage.  The Raging Barbarian goes down in about 3.26 rounds in a slugfest.  The Druid-5's Natural Bonded Ape with Leather Barding beats the Raging Barbarian-5 in melee ... and the Druid has had this exact Ape build since 4th, potentially, and the Ape gets another two points of attack and two points of AC when the Druid hits 6th.The calm Barbarian hits the Ape on a roll of 9, for an average damage per hit of 10.5; average damage of 6.3 per round. Ape is expected to go down in about 6.67 rounds in a slugfest.The Ape hits the calm barbarian on rolls of 9/9/14, for the same damage on a hit of 9.5/9.5/6.5; average damage 13.675 per round.  calm Barbarian is expected to go down in about 3.14 rounds.The Druid-5's Natural Bonded Ape with Leather Barding beats the calm Barbarian-5 in melee ... and the Druid has had this exact Ape build since 4th, potentially, and the Ape gets another two points of attack and two points of AC when the Druid hits 6th.Oh yeah - and I'm ignoring the Ape's 6th Hit Die feat that it gets from Natural Bond.With Barbarian and Druid at equal levels, the DMG NPC Barbarian starts to be able to beat up the Natural Bonded Ape with Leather Barding at around level 8 or 10.  The Ape, though, comes with a Druid who can strengthen him further (either riding in a custom saddle and sharing spells for free, standing right next to the Ape and sharing spells for free while also fighting, or not sharing spells but flanking).  DMG NPC Barbarian not so much.  And the Ape is easier to replace than is the Barbarian.Yes.  Rational groups, even.Firstly, the DMG NPC Barbarian isn't exactly optimized with what he has (I'm using him simply because it's less work for me to just grab the statistics than to build a good Barbarian).  There's probably a Shock Trooper Leap Attack Barbarian-5 build out there somewhere that'll take out the Natural Bonded Ape on a Charge in one hit, while being able to survive two or three rounds of pounding from the Ape.Secondly, the DMG NPC Barbarian doesn't have grand stats; he has the elite array, which is a 25 point buy distributed in an ok, but not optimal, manner.  The PC Barbarian is quite possibly on a 32 point buy distributed more optimally, with more equipment distributed more optimally.Thirdly, some parties don't have all roles covered - if the Meat shield role is otherwise missing, then it's fine for the Druid to do this, as the ape isn't overshadowing a PC (which is usually what causes problems more than the rest).Fourth, some parties don't mind cheesy characters; as long as basically everyone in the party is roughly equally cheesy, the DM can simply step up the CR of opponents to compensate.Fifth, the DMG NPC Barbarian will win if played intelligently - he's got a bow, and he can move faster (if he sheds that silly Medium armor, he goes 40 feet per round).  One round of Withdrawing, and the Barbarian is out of Charge range on the Ape (20 foot lead).  If he thereafter runs, he picks up another 40 feet of lead each round.  On Round 1, he Withdrawls; round 2, he runs.  On round 3, he's 60 feet away from the Ape, so fires his bow and moves 40 feet further away - ape catches up only on a Run (and thus can't attack).  Barbarian repeats the procedure.  It'll take an age, and a large open area, but the Barbarian WILL win.  Just not in a slugfest like the class is built for.Three and four are situational, but if either is present, it's perfectly OK for the Druid to Natural Bond this way all by their lonesome.  One, two, and five are pretty much universal for mechanics-skilled Barbarian players, and will keep the Ape from outshining the Barbarian at lower levels.</blockquote>

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