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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Steel_Wind" data-source="post: 5131065" data-attributes="member: 20741">I think the one undercurrent in many of these posts and in similar discussions is trouble with the concept of the "reward" for success and the "penalty" for failure.The trouble arises outside of the context for the XP resulting from the skill challenge itself. Obviously, succeeding at a skill challenge earns XP. That's a tangible reward. But with reference to the "combat" that is sometimes imposed on characters as a "penalty" for failing a skill challenge, the players may not see it, in least in any meta-game sense, as a real "penalty." Most will not see it as a penalty unless you decide to run a combat following a failed skill challenge as a "penalty", either.Indeed, players may see a combat as an opportunity to earn even MORE XP, more than they would have had they "succeeded" at the skill challenge.  Frankly, in many cases, the players probably have a point.  This is the meta-game in action - and you need to deal with it overtly and directly when required - not just subtly. So try these elements in crafting your rewards for a skill challenge which is tied to combat for penalty/failure:1 - The combat that proceeds only in the event a skill challenge is failed does not earn any XP. Period. It consumes party resources and might kill a character. The loot the such a combat yields is always very poor, too.If you have your combats for failed skill challenges proceed in that fashion, your players are not going to like failing the skill challenge and will put more effort into suceeding at them. You need to make the "penalty" a "penalty" in the meta-game sense, too.2 - When a skill challenge "penalty" results in a combat, it is a better design to set up your adventure so that the combat ALWAYS happens, whether the skill challenge succeeds or fails. Simply change your approach so that the skill challenge affects HOW the combat happens and  WHEN it happens - not IF it happens at all.Example: Assume the combat that is going to follow the skill challenge, pass or fail, is with 6 CR 8 creatures.If the Heroes succeed at the skill challenge, they may encounter those creatures in two separate groups of three CR8 critters, not just one group. This will not only make the combat much easier for the PCs, it will also give more encounter powers to the heroes, too.  You will observe that the underlying XP earned for the encounter(s) does not change either under 4E XP rules.When the XP is the same, and the treasure is the same, often the the players will prefer the eaiser combat (though not always - depends on your group.) Use this device if the players see it in the meta-game sense as a real reward/penalty. 3. Alternatively, instead of splitting up the monsters/foes in the battle to follow, the Skill Challenge grants a bonus during the fight through some effect, and failing the skill challenge imposes a penalty during the fight -- or permits them to recover treasure from the fight that will follow that they would not otherwise recover. These are pretty ham-fisted rewards/penalties, admittedly, but don't ignore the direct method  -- especially when trying to coax PCs into really getting into the spirit of the skill challenge system.Again - the meta-game focus is upon making the ultimate success a real reward so that the players commit to making skill challenges fun - not perfunctory. Not every skill challenge needs to work this way, of course, but the ones that lead to combat should often work this way, imo.When the meta-game rewards "failure" you need to change the meta-game rules so that there is no reward for failure. Pure and simple. Point of Privilege: Skill Challenges may have been introduced as part of 4E, but they are not restricted to 4E any longer. The same mechanic is in Star Wars: SE. There are even some D&D 3.5 and Pathfinder DMs now using the skill challenge system in their games. Accordingly, please refrain from using the "4E" Topic Header when posting on Skill Challenge design discussions. It's just not a system specific discussion anymore.  Moreover, that's why the topic is not in the system specific  "Rules" sub-forums, either.</blockquote>

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