Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
White Dwarf Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Nest
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
EN Publishing
Twitter
BlueSky
Facebook
Instagram
EN World
BlueSky
YouTube
Facebook
Twitter
Twitch
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Upgrade your account to a Community Supporter account and remove most of the site ads.
Rocket your D&D 5E and Level Up: Advanced 5E games into space! Alpha Star Magazine Is Launching... Right Now!
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
Got to play 4E today
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Sashi" data-source="post: 4190492" data-attributes="member: 61842"><p>Because 4E is working through an Exception-Based rules system, instead of an Inclusion-Based system.</p><p></p><p>In 3E especially players were encouraged to have a single tool and pile as many special abilities on top of that tool as possible, a wizard was encouraged to boost his spell save DC's as far as possible, because you had a single ability (provoke a save with your spell) that was modified incrementally by inclusive effects (take a feat to boost your DC, boost your int to increase your DC, etc). Nowhere is this more apparent than the mounted combat character, who pours all of his feats, abilities, and equipment into having as high of a charge bonus as possible, and then applies that trick to all his attacks whenever possible. The same thing is present in Rogues who boost their SA dice, and on and on.</p><p></p><p>Each ability in 4E is doing is saying "here is an ability, it works, here is another ability, it works too. But you're not allowed to blend those two abilities with a third and create something broken" So a Fighter does not get a class ability of "add 3 damage to the fighters melee attacks" and then a Daily ability of "once per day the fighter may deal 3x damage with a melee attack" because those would be <em>inclusive</em> abilities. The fighter spends all his resources to boost his basic melee attack as high as possible, and then sometimes triples that damage. Instead he gets an at-will ability of "make a melee attack, add 3 damage to it" and a Daily ability of "Make a melee attack, deal 3x damage with it".</p><p></p><p>The reasoning behind this method is pretty simple, really. It's <em>incredibly</em> difficult to balance inclusion-based rules systems (possibly impossible, because there's almost always SOME number of abilities that, when combined, grant geometric power growth). This is why we have Weapon Specialization, which is nice for a 2W fighter where it can give him +20 damage if he hits with 5 of his 7 attacks for the round, and <em>totally OMG broken</em> when it gives that optimized pouncing charge fighter build an extra 100 damage because he hits 5 times for x10 damage in a round. If instead you make a TWF ability tree that slowly increases the damage bonus for each attack made from +1 to eventually +4 that will work out well for him. And then you make a charge abilty tree that grants bonus charge damage from +10 to +40, and you're assured that the player won't grab 10 different splatbooks, pile them all on top of each other, and fuse them, voltron-like, into a single ability that deals 10,000 damage and provokes four different save-or-die effects.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Sashi, post: 4190492, member: 61842"] Because 4E is working through an Exception-Based rules system, instead of an Inclusion-Based system. In 3E especially players were encouraged to have a single tool and pile as many special abilities on top of that tool as possible, a wizard was encouraged to boost his spell save DC's as far as possible, because you had a single ability (provoke a save with your spell) that was modified incrementally by inclusive effects (take a feat to boost your DC, boost your int to increase your DC, etc). Nowhere is this more apparent than the mounted combat character, who pours all of his feats, abilities, and equipment into having as high of a charge bonus as possible, and then applies that trick to all his attacks whenever possible. The same thing is present in Rogues who boost their SA dice, and on and on. Each ability in 4E is doing is saying "here is an ability, it works, here is another ability, it works too. But you're not allowed to blend those two abilities with a third and create something broken" So a Fighter does not get a class ability of "add 3 damage to the fighters melee attacks" and then a Daily ability of "once per day the fighter may deal 3x damage with a melee attack" because those would be [i]inclusive[/i] abilities. The fighter spends all his resources to boost his basic melee attack as high as possible, and then sometimes triples that damage. Instead he gets an at-will ability of "make a melee attack, add 3 damage to it" and a Daily ability of "Make a melee attack, deal 3x damage with it". The reasoning behind this method is pretty simple, really. It's [i]incredibly[/i] difficult to balance inclusion-based rules systems (possibly impossible, because there's almost always SOME number of abilities that, when combined, grant geometric power growth). This is why we have Weapon Specialization, which is nice for a 2W fighter where it can give him +20 damage if he hits with 5 of his 7 attacks for the round, and [i]totally OMG broken[/i] when it gives that optimized pouncing charge fighter build an extra 100 damage because he hits 5 times for x10 damage in a round. If instead you make a TWF ability tree that slowly increases the damage bonus for each attack made from +1 to eventually +4 that will work out well for him. And then you make a charge abilty tree that grants bonus charge damage from +10 to +40, and you're assured that the player won't grab 10 different splatbooks, pile them all on top of each other, and fuse them, voltron-like, into a single ability that deals 10,000 damage and provokes four different save-or-die effects. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
Got to play 4E today
Top