Grab & Throw

[Infiniti2000]

Probably a basic question, but Pg. 290 has the rules on Grab. I had a bad guy and a PC adjacent to each at the edge of a pit. The bad guy grabbed the PC in one round, the PC failed to escape (yet damaged the bad guy), and the second round the bad guy wanted to "throw" the PC into the pit that was 10ft deep and filled with giant rats. This is not a bull rush (which would allow a saving throw). The "move a grabbed target" action seems to indicate that the bad guy has to fall into the pit, too (perhaps even first because of the 'pull'). Is my reading correct? Is there no 'throw' mechanic?

 

[Starglim]

I believe you're right - the bad guy could use that action and choose to move 0 squares, but when you pull a target, each square must move it closer to you, so he couldn't move the target from one adjacent square to another adjacent square with a pull. He needs to slide the target and I don't see a basic combat option to do that. If the DM allowed it, I certainly expect the target would get a saving throw.

The bad guy could instead shift to a square that put the target between him and the pit, then bull rush him in.

 

[Infiniti2000]

In this case I decided that it was a "trained" dire rat, not unlike a big German shepherd, whose job it was to throw enemies into the pit for devouring by the other rats. It was just a sample combat anyway to start get everyone 'used' to 4e and their new characters. Next, we're gonna run through KotS and then restart with new characters in a homebrew as the "real" campaign.

 

[James McMurray]

Any sort of forced movement into a pit should allow a save, no matter the flavor text behind it.

 

[Nail]

Any sort of forced movement into a pit should allow a save, no matter the flavor text behind it.

I agree.

...but do we have a rules quote for that? I see that page 44 of the DMG might do the trick....

 

[Starglim]

I agree.

...but do we have a rules quote for that? I see that page 44 of the DMG might do the trick....

PHB p. 284, "Falling - Catching Yourself"

You explicitly get a saving throw if moved by a power or a bull rush into a pit. Since all monster attacks are powers (MM p. 4) I believe the intent is that every method of forced movement in the core rules allows a saving throw if it causes you to fall from an edge.

edit: Moving a grabbed creature is not covered by p. 284. It seems fair and cinematic to allow this, if the attacker has used two standard actions and is prepared to go into the pit itself. In the case of an attacker that somehow could avoid falling in, I'd apply "pull the grabbed target with you" strictly: at the point where the attacker is no longer pulling the target with it, such as when it drops a grabbed target, the target gets a saving throw if it is in danger of falling.

Whether this applies to a hazard other than a pit or precipice, or to teleportation, can and has been argued elsewhere.

 

[James McMurray]

edit: Moving a grabbed creature is not covered by p. 284.

Moving a grabbed creature is a pull, which is forced movement and covered by 284. Throwing a grabbed creature is a house rule, but should probably be implemented as a push (you'd need telekinesis to slide them), which is also forced movement.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Moving a grabbed creature is a pull, which is forced movement and covered by 284.

Pulling a creature, whether you call it forced movement or not, does not make it covered by the text referenced here. It only and explicitly mentions powers and bull rush.

 

[ValhallaGH]

Probably a basic question, but Pg. 290 has the rules on Grab. I had a bad guy and a PC adjacent to each at the edge of a pit. The bad guy grabbed the PC in one round, the PC failed to escape (yet damaged the bad guy), and the second round the bad guy wanted to "throw" the PC into the pit that was 10ft deep and filled with giant rats. This is not a bull rush (which would allow a saving throw). The "move a grabbed target" action seems to indicate that the bad guy has to fall into the pit, too (perhaps even first because of the 'pull'). Is my reading correct? Is there no 'throw' mechanic?

Rather obviously, by this point, this actually isn't a basic question.

I'd cover it with either a special bullrush action (forced movement; that is the goal) or some sort of stunt using the guidelines in the DMG.
Either way, it's reasonable that the PC get a saving throw to catch himself at the edge of the pit. However, it is also possible for the throwing creature to impose some sort of penalty on the save by using additional actions, beating the DC by a certain amount, some combination of the two, or another option entirely.

Final bit of advice: if your monsters can do it without powers then your players are going to want to do it without powers. Make sure whatever you work out is something you're comfortable with your players using against your monsters.

 

[LostSoul]

In this case I decided that it was a "trained" dire rat, not unlike a big German shepherd, whose job it was to throw enemies into the pit for devouring by the other rats. It was just a sample combat anyway to start get everyone 'used' to 4e and their new characters. Next, we're gonna run through KotS and then restart with new characters in a homebrew as the "real" campaign.

If that's his job, you could just say he has a power that lets him do that. +2 vs. Fort, 1d6+2 and the target is Pushed 1 square.

Without that power: +2 vs. Fort; target is Pushed 1 square.

The PC should get a saving throw, but you could overrule that in the description of the power.