Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
White Dwarf Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Nest
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
EN Publishing
Twitter
BlueSky
Facebook
Instagram
EN World
BlueSky
YouTube
Facebook
Twitter
Twitch
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
Grading At-Will Powers
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Fedifensor" data-source="post: 4355777" data-attributes="member: 7289"><p>Brutes are a common foe from level 1 all the way to level 30 - they're easy to run, and considered "baseline muscle" per the DMG. Artillery, Lurkers, and Skirmishers are, on average, also good choices to target with Will.</p><p></p><p>Now, part of the reason you have multiple at-will powers is to match the attack to the defense. Half of the wizard at-will powers target Reflex, so adding an at-will that targets Will is a good thing. If it wasn't for the fact that Fortitude seems to be higher on average than Reflex or Will, Ray of Frost would be a better choice than it currently is. Will is, by the stats given in <a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?t=229092" target="_blank">this</a> thread, the lowest of the defenses. Thus, it makes sense to pick an at-will that targets that defense.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Funny, I was under the impression that the core rulebooks were available for everyone to purchase. Heck, after a few years of DMing 3.5, I'll often know a creature's strong and weak saves on the top of my head. Furthermore, the players should be able to figure out the relative value of a defense after a few rounds of attacking it, given that DMs are encouraged to dispense information like, "it didn't hit, but you think it was close".</p><p></p><p>As to whether the wizard would use Illusory Assault before late in the combat, that's a straw man. A wizard won't use any at-will in a fight against a solo until he's exhausted his other options. You don't hold back against the big bad guy.</p><p></p><p>Finally, though I provided examples for each tier, you only focused on the Epic Tier example. The Tarrasque certainly isn't the only monster in the MM with a weak Will save, not by far.</p><p></p><p></p><p>As we're grading at-will powers, the assumption is that the wizard has already used his other powers, or for some reason doesn't want to use them (maybe the Tarrasque is the warm-up before fighting Orcus). I could replace "Illusory Ambush" with "Cloud of Daggers" in the quote above, and it would be just as true.</p><p></p><p></p><p>If he's not bloodied. Which, if you're down to using at-wills, the Tarrasque better be bloodied...or you should be running away. Cloud of Daggers may deal decent damage when used by high-WIS characters, but a party isn't going to chew through nearly a thousand HP with just at-will powers.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Sorry, you're going to have to back this argument up, instead of just whipping a "1 in 5" number out of thin air. Against minions, unless the minions are incredibly spread out, Scorching Burst or Thunderwave are both better than any of the single-target powers, so using Cloud of Daggers is a moot point. Illusory Ambush does respectable single-target damage <strong><em>and</em></strong> reduces damage taken. I'm not saying it's a no-brainer...but neither is Cloud of Daggers.</p><p></p><p></p><p>It's not that simple. I'd rather deal X damage with Scorching Burst to 3 or 4 different foes than 2X damage to one foe with Cloud of Daggers. Even if 2X is enough to kill one opponent, two rounds of Scorching Burst beats out two rounds of Cloud of Daggers.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Which is why different powers have different functions. AoE powers (Scorching Burst and Thunderwave) wear down the HP of multiple creatures at once. Cloud of Daggers does strong damage (for an at-will) to one target. Magic Missile does less damage than Cloud of Daggers (though Bracers of the Perfect Shot can balance this out), but it does so at a longer range and works well with a Warlord's power to grant basic attacks. Illusory Assault is best when the encounter has one strong creature to worry about, as it inflicts a significant penalty on the creature who dishes out the most damage (or effects, in the case of controllers). Even Ray of Frost can have uses with the various cold feats.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Which is less likely to occur when the creature that does the most damage is taking a penalty to hit.</p><p></p><p></p><p>You also seem to have the baseline assumption that your wizard is pumping Wisdom to the exclusion of other stats. That's true for an Orb wizard, but not for a Staff or Wand wizard. With a lower Wisdom, Cloud of Daggers loses much of its luster. Now, if you're saying there's no reason for a wizard to take any implement except Orb, that's a completely different discussion.</p><p></p><p></p><p>That, at least, we can agree on.</p><p></p><p></p><p>That hasn't been proven, and Scorching Burst is more potent than either Cloud of Daggers or Illusory Ambush in the typical encounter. </p><p></p><p></p><p>If the thread survives the database fix on the WotC boards, I'll link to it here.</p><p></p><p>Edit: The WotC boards are back up, and you can find it <a href="http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=16267997&postcount=1" target="_blank">here</a>. If we're going to discuss that build, let me know and I'll cross-post the build to these forums in its own thread.</p><p></p><p></p><p>All a wizard needs for respectable attack and defense scores are three items - all of which can be level 26. A +6 implement, +6 armor, and a +6 amulet. Everything else is gravy. All three are easily acquired before level 30. Heck, with residuum used as currency, you can just craft them with the Enchant Magic Item ritual.</p><p></p><p></p><p>While true, we're talking about a reasonably optimized character. If the character is not optimized, then the player isn't going to care about which at-will is best - they're just going to pick for flavor.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Straw man, once again. You get more than one at-will. Scorching Burst takes care of most of that, and if you're a human (the optimized wizard will be either human or eladrin for the Int bonus) you get three powers to choose from, depending on the situation.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Fedifensor, post: 4355777, member: 7289"] Brutes are a common foe from level 1 all the way to level 30 - they're easy to run, and considered "baseline muscle" per the DMG. Artillery, Lurkers, and Skirmishers are, on average, also good choices to target with Will. Now, part of the reason you have multiple at-will powers is to match the attack to the defense. Half of the wizard at-will powers target Reflex, so adding an at-will that targets Will is a good thing. If it wasn't for the fact that Fortitude seems to be higher on average than Reflex or Will, Ray of Frost would be a better choice than it currently is. Will is, by the stats given in [URL="http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?t=229092"]this[/URL] thread, the lowest of the defenses. Thus, it makes sense to pick an at-will that targets that defense. Funny, I was under the impression that the core rulebooks were available for everyone to purchase. Heck, after a few years of DMing 3.5, I'll often know a creature's strong and weak saves on the top of my head. Furthermore, the players should be able to figure out the relative value of a defense after a few rounds of attacking it, given that DMs are encouraged to dispense information like, "it didn't hit, but you think it was close". As to whether the wizard would use Illusory Assault before late in the combat, that's a straw man. A wizard won't use any at-will in a fight against a solo until he's exhausted his other options. You don't hold back against the big bad guy. Finally, though I provided examples for each tier, you only focused on the Epic Tier example. The Tarrasque certainly isn't the only monster in the MM with a weak Will save, not by far. As we're grading at-will powers, the assumption is that the wizard has already used his other powers, or for some reason doesn't want to use them (maybe the Tarrasque is the warm-up before fighting Orcus). I could replace "Illusory Ambush" with "Cloud of Daggers" in the quote above, and it would be just as true. If he's not bloodied. Which, if you're down to using at-wills, the Tarrasque better be bloodied...or you should be running away. Cloud of Daggers may deal decent damage when used by high-WIS characters, but a party isn't going to chew through nearly a thousand HP with just at-will powers. Sorry, you're going to have to back this argument up, instead of just whipping a "1 in 5" number out of thin air. Against minions, unless the minions are incredibly spread out, Scorching Burst or Thunderwave are both better than any of the single-target powers, so using Cloud of Daggers is a moot point. Illusory Ambush does respectable single-target damage [B][I]and[/I][/B] reduces damage taken. I'm not saying it's a no-brainer...but neither is Cloud of Daggers. It's not that simple. I'd rather deal X damage with Scorching Burst to 3 or 4 different foes than 2X damage to one foe with Cloud of Daggers. Even if 2X is enough to kill one opponent, two rounds of Scorching Burst beats out two rounds of Cloud of Daggers. Which is why different powers have different functions. AoE powers (Scorching Burst and Thunderwave) wear down the HP of multiple creatures at once. Cloud of Daggers does strong damage (for an at-will) to one target. Magic Missile does less damage than Cloud of Daggers (though Bracers of the Perfect Shot can balance this out), but it does so at a longer range and works well with a Warlord's power to grant basic attacks. Illusory Assault is best when the encounter has one strong creature to worry about, as it inflicts a significant penalty on the creature who dishes out the most damage (or effects, in the case of controllers). Even Ray of Frost can have uses with the various cold feats. Which is less likely to occur when the creature that does the most damage is taking a penalty to hit. You also seem to have the baseline assumption that your wizard is pumping Wisdom to the exclusion of other stats. That's true for an Orb wizard, but not for a Staff or Wand wizard. With a lower Wisdom, Cloud of Daggers loses much of its luster. Now, if you're saying there's no reason for a wizard to take any implement except Orb, that's a completely different discussion. That, at least, we can agree on. That hasn't been proven, and Scorching Burst is more potent than either Cloud of Daggers or Illusory Ambush in the typical encounter. If the thread survives the database fix on the WotC boards, I'll link to it here. Edit: The WotC boards are back up, and you can find it [URL="http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=16267997&postcount=1"]here[/URL]. If we're going to discuss that build, let me know and I'll cross-post the build to these forums in its own thread. All a wizard needs for respectable attack and defense scores are three items - all of which can be level 26. A +6 implement, +6 armor, and a +6 amulet. Everything else is gravy. All three are easily acquired before level 30. Heck, with residuum used as currency, you can just craft them with the Enchant Magic Item ritual. While true, we're talking about a reasonably optimized character. If the character is not optimized, then the player isn't going to care about which at-will is best - they're just going to pick for flavor. Straw man, once again. You get more than one at-will. Scorching Burst takes care of most of that, and if you're a human (the optimized wizard will be either human or eladrin for the Int bonus) you get three powers to choose from, depending on the situation. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
Grading At-Will Powers
Top