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Message: <blockquote data-quote="AngryPurpleCyclops" data-source="post: 4697434" data-attributes="member: 82732">Fireswarm is probably better than a C-, it's possible to combine it with some sort of immobilization power and inflict pretty solid damage but in any event it's nothing special.If you drop tendrils on a group and hit 2 or more creatures, it's pretty much guaranteed to do more damage than blade cascade.  And it immobilizes them.  I'm not sure why you give daze a better rating than immobilize.  Personally I like immobilize better unless the creature is a "leader" with minor actions that pump it's followers or inflict penalties on the pc's.  Coupled with actions that push, pull, slide, shift bad guys tendrils can be devastating.  It doesn't even have to hit every round to keep creatures immobilized.  They need to make a save or else they're locked down and even if they have a huge bonus to saves like an elite or solo you get a chance to pin them down again before they escape.  You can couple this with wintertouched and lasting frost which makes it easier to sustain and a lot more painful for those that are in it, some might call this a brutal combo.   Renew the troops also seems like at least an A- (I would say A or A+) as it deals 3W dmg and might easily heal 100hp's of dmg without using surge.  Pretty mighty.  Even a miss is likely worth 50-70HP's of healing without a surge.  I disagree that all the damage will be concentrated on 1-2 characters as usually by this level the monsters are delivering some blasts and bursts.  The melee types seem to use more surges than the ranged types in 4e but we rarely leave an encounter without everyone getting hit, saving this power until everyone has 15-20 dmg doesn't seem that difficult.  Even if it only heals 3 pc's a healing surge plus cha for a fighter is likely worth 26+ for a fighter by level 15+ throw in another 22 or so for the other two and you're looking at 70'ish healing at worst on a hit.  Character hit points are about twice as valuable as monster hit points so 70 healing is roughly equivalent to 140 dmg in terms of winning encounters.Once a wizard has deployed a cool daily that persists, worrying about using another daily with a minor seems silly.  This is 2 attacks at 2d10+int every round and immobilize. If neither creature escapes it's 4d10+20ish automatic damage for the price of a std action.  If one creature escapes you can hit it with the hand with a move action (2d10+10) and then slam it against the other with a std on the same turn.  This gives the possibility of delivering 4d10+20 to one creature and 2d10 to another.  Plus immobilizing them both.  This is ongoing blade cascade like damage.  Even if both creatures escape you get to use move actions as ATT so you can take two attacks without burning up any powers.  The benefit of sustainable powers is that you get to keep doing "encounter or daily power" dmg without using up any of your resources.  trust me when you're delivering 6d10+30 dmg 3-4 rounds after the spell is cast, you're going to be thinking wow this is a nice spell.  Lets not forget you're "grabbing" two creatures who are forced to use their move action to try and escape or take the guaranteed damage.  I find it hard to believe you won't trade your std and a minor for two creature held and 4d10+20 per round.  (incidently the +10 is based upon me assuming you're working with a +6 or +7 stat and a +3 implement (there's also the possibility of other feats, increasing this but 10 static seemed reasonable at level 15).   No real use vs a solo.Blast of cold should be tossed out compared to the others.  Otilukes is ok if it hits but kind of weak when compared to the others at this level.  Anything worth putting inside can probably cut it's way out in a relatively short time though this is effectively fixed duration stun that removes a monster from the battle for a while while the party gets busy on other targets.  While this is a benefit, it has no real affect on a solo other than delaying the encounter a couple rounds.  Very surprising to see it compared favorably to the hands.  If you miss, you get almost no benefit, just one immobilized save ends, no damage, no residual.  If you hit you basically remove a level equivalent bad guy for 3-6 turns depending on it's att power.  I popped open the MM and looked at the table of monsters by level.  I looked at githyanki gish and salamanders to see how the sphere might hold up in terms of duration vs a 15th level monster.  The gish can break out in about 3-4 rounds depending on if it is willing to expend it's AP.  The salamander archer is likely to stay held 5 rounds though a little luck has it out in 4.  So roughly half the time the power removes one bad guy for 4 rounds, good not great. Slightly less than half the time vs a soldier because soldiers have high reflex and soldiers are really who you want to grab up a leader or a controller makes a nice second choice.  Meanwhile hands is probably putting out enough damage to more than bloody 2 creatures in the same time and once the shell is open hands are still working the bad guys over.  More importantly hands almost never fail to deliver.  Because they persist you keep getting grab after grab (immobilize after immobilize) which can brutalize a group of powerful melee creatures.  It's sort of a toss up which is better if sphere hits because removing a bad guy for a few rounds can help the party get control of the situation but roughly half the time sphere does nothing while hands keep filling the room with the sound of clapping ogre heads...Prismatic beams... a tiny shadow of the damage of hands other than you might catch 2-4 targets initially.  Odds are pretty good only 1 target gets pounded.  Once again daze is not overwhelming for many creatures.  It does inhibit but immobilize can do far more since it cripple melee creatures while daze cripples neither ranged nor melee types.  Wall is pretty solid, you can couple this with the winter touched and lasting frost combo to up it's power and Pain.  Using a physical wall you can even encircle a couple of large creatures.  In a 10' wide hallway you could completely crush a medium size group of monsters by running the wall down one side of a hall and closing off both ends with a double thickness, the amount of damage the group will take before they get out it very impressive. the W's represent the 12 squares of the wall of ice, the O's represent 4 monsters walking down a corridor.  |WW||WW||WO||WO||WO||WO||WW||WW|I'm unsure which is better wall or hands because in various situations either could be better.  In wide open geography wall has greatly decreased impact while hands seem to remain constant regardless of situation, but are ineffective against a solo where wall could trap a dragon with a stone wall as the 4th side.my take on wizard powers.  Bigby's Grasping Hands / ABlast of Cold / C-Otilukes Resilient Sphere / BPrismatic Beams / BWall of Ice / A</blockquote>

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