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Message: <blockquote data-quote="AngryPurpleCyclops" data-source="post: 4703912" data-attributes="member: 82732">The problem here is semantical.  I fully understand that daze always grants CA and takes away an action even if there's no other benefit.  By equally situational I meant that given the weighted impact of each outcome and the probability of each situation they were equally situational.  In the event no one attacks the creature while it's dazed but it can charge another pc and manages to hit, what real benefit was daze?  Even if someone attacks CA only changes the outcome 10% of the time unless we're talking about a rogue which is again situational (the party might have no rogue).Not true at all, if you take the perception that it only helps if it changes an outcome or prevents damage.   If it is true then it's equally true of immobilize.  Immobilize always prevents some actions.  I would say this is a tiny benefit if the creature still gets off an attack that hits.  Unless it can't move from damaging terrain then it's pretty huge either way. You seem to be undervaluing the ability of immobilize to prevent an attack and over valuing the ability of daze to do so.   improved to hit only matters 1 time in 10, if there's a rogue and he hits this is a benefit, denying actions is only important if those actions would have happened.  I understand it's clearly a benefit of daze that a wizard can fire off a big ranged attack and then move fully away from the powerful melee critter and not provoke an OA with either.  change sometimes to most of the time.  You pick the target of the power, you're not frequently going to dump an immobilize on the archer but you're very likely to drop it on the umberhulk.  Immobilize is massively better at it.  Only teleport escapes.  Other than that it's 100% effective.  Daze only helps if the terrain is difficult and the creature doesn't have enough points of movement to reach an edge.  This means for most creatures they must be 4 squares from the edge of the terrain.  How often does that happen?   90% of zones are under 6 squares so unless you have another factor involved (i.e. the zone is in a corner of a room and the creature is in the corner of the zone that is the corner of the room) the creature can almost always escape.define move actions of note.  Does this mean teleport?Highly subjective and can be equally applied to daze.  If you're adjacent to a creature that gets immobilized you can shift away and deny him his attack.  You're not going to attempt to immobilize a creature that is already adjacent to a pc and will act before that pc unless you have no better options.  you kep trying to make highly situational and anecdotal arguments against immobilize without considering the inverse.  Massively stilted level selection. Really anecdotal when compared to all 30 levels.  By the epic tier most creatures have more options for attacking.  By level 22 a pc might have a host of debilitating effects in his arsenal and you'll likely deploy the ones that have more impact ont he target. I'll still play along because I'm a good sport but this was a ridiculously uneven level to choose. why is he dead if it's round one?+Rot Slinger (Rot Harbinger) Level 22 Artillery - much better melee than ranged though both are good. CA probably is better than stopping this guy from reaching melee though it's closer than you think and I might call it a wash because ongoing 10 is a lot worse than weak.   *Bluespawn Godslayer Level 22 Elite Brute - would you target this creature after he was engaged?  If I do hit him with immobilize, he's not in combat.  Daze also does not prevent him from attacking.  Suppose the effect lasts 3 rounds.  Immobilize has completely prevented him from engaging for 3 rounds where daze just forced him to charge and his speed is 8 so he can cover a lot of ground.  Granted CA might have caused him to take more dmg but I'll take immobilize especially as I'll be choosing when I use my powers it will never be after he's in combat with our fighter.*Death Giant Level 22 Brute - same as above, advantage immobilize *Hezrou (Demon) Level 22 Brute - same as above advantage immobilize.#War Devil (Malebranche) Level 22 Brute (L) - teleport, advantage dazed#Marut Concordant Level 22 Elite Controller - teleport, advantage dazed#Astral Stalker (Abomination) Level 22 Elite Lurker - ranged attacks, invisibility action, only slightly affected#Efreet Fireblade Level 22 Soldier - only has 1 ranged attack and that needs a recharge.  Possible to immobilize him after he's used it and still gain great use of immobilize. still advantage dazed.#Elder Red Dragon Level 22 Solo Soldier - reach 3, hover flight, ranged and melee attacks, immobilize makes flying creatures land, hover creatures do not need to spend a move action and thus remain aloft if dazed, this creature also has only one ranged attack out side of 5 and that has a recharge so immobilize could tie it up for several rounds and leave it powerless to act.  I'll still give this to daze but immobilize could definitely impact this situationally.*Thunderhawk (Roc) Level 22 Elite Soldier - still affected better by immobilize than daze, it's primary attack is a charge and it has hover flight.  Incidentally when I looked up this creature I looked at roc's (level 14) a regular roc is devastated by immobilize and only moderately affected by daze.  It has a fly by attack so it will still function normally it just won't get the bit after it tosses you to the rocks.  Meanwhile immobilize makes it crash, no attacks unless it happens to fall next to you. Just one example that shows a huge bonus to immobilize.I question this logic quite a bit beyond the fact you picked a level designed to shaft immobilize I think it works better on the minion and 4 of the other 10 while being pretty close to even on 1 more.  I had thought that immobilize makes flying creatures land but in looking at the dmg for this post I realize that's not true as silly as that seems.  Oops, missed that.  I totally get it now, thanks.  Surges are still valuable but the healing is still better for stand.  Really poorly designed change from 6th to 16th.  I still think this is a good power (possibly 300 hp's with no surge) but it's annoying to see the weakness when compared to stand.  One note on line of site. I agree with you on line of sight/blinded.  It totally makes sense and I would probably play it that way as well, but RAW fanatics might say LOS and actually seeing aren't the same.   I would agree that range ten will mostly always get all allies but I would also say that line of sight is more likely to benefit you than hurt you in this regard.  I've seen a lot more encounters where my pc's are more than 10 squares apart than I have where they couldn't find a line of sight to each other.  Yes we try to avoid encounter when the fighter or rogue is down to less than 3.  I agree stand is better most of the time but the non surge healing might mean we saved a surge in an earlier encounter and thus have an extra one each remaining so renew is better in that instance.</blockquote>

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