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Message: <blockquote data-quote="keterys" data-source="post: 4704027" data-attributes="member: 43019">You may want to note the disclaimer for these ratings:"All powers are graded assuming they are used effectively - if a power requires a second person in melee to work, don't take it in a party with no other melee. In many cases you'll find that personal preference varies from these grades - while a power may be extraordinary in theory or combined with the right build or party, take the power that is most fun for you!"It always means the rogue doesn't need flank. It always means that people can ignore opportunity attacks from the target. It always means that sustaining powers is painful and that some other abilities are denied. It always synergizes with other effects like grab or prone. It always provides an increase in average via combat advantage. It always means the target has limited ability to select targets if the party chooses to take appropriate steps. Etc.Ignoring the benefits of daze so that it doesn't have an effect is not effectively using it. Immobilize is quite effective at preventing some attacks from some targets. And if you're not fighting any melee only creatures? If the Umber Hulk won initiative and is already adjacent to someone, so you need to double move to make it lose the ability to attack and it will _still_ be able to use its confusing gaze unless you're more than 5 squares away?Or any type of forced movement... not common but I've seen a Deathlock Wight push an ally out of a zone, for instance.Or if a fighter can OA to stop movement, or heavy blade opportunity can slow or push or slide the target. But, as I noted, immobilize is better at keeping creatures in a zone. Certainly agree.Only certain creatures, only if all allies shift - which makes it both initiative dependent and ally action dependent, and potentially limits your damage output (such as by negating flank for the rogue)Correct. Making it not useful in those cases... which makes immobilize less effective.No, I am considering it. I'm giving it a different weight than you are. You seem to be assuming that you'll always have the right target selection and tactical situation. Immobilize is _fantastic_ in the first round of combat with the right enemies... with the wrong enemies less so, after the first round or if you lose initiative... even less.I was looking at level 15 powers, so I'd had that level of creatures up to look at for the Bloody Path example. I can certainly bring up more examples, but I hardly think that an entire level of creatures, every single one of them, is 'anecdotal' to the discussion. If immobilize becomes significantly less useful at epic, that is a an impact.Eh, one I had up. I'll do another level later... but we are looking at level 15 powers, so it can only go so low <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> Because he's a minion and you just immobilized him. I sure hope you damaged him too <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Its ranged attack is as good as its melee... it's not only weaken, it's also vs Fort (more likely to hit), and -2 to saves which can be very helpful for maintaining other effects.Why would the effect last 3 rounds? It's got a save bonus, among other things. As noted, if you get initiative over it, in the first round of combat, you can immobilize it before it engages. If not, then it's likely already too late due to it having reach 3.Indeed, same as above, no advantage immobilize.Ditto.Immobiize does not cause hover fliers to land... cool houserule though. (Ah, I see you realized this later on)Hover flight still works, as you know. Immobilize is more effective on the level 14 Roc than daze under most situations, agreed.I didn't pick a level to shaft immobilize - I picked a median level for the powers we're looking at pretty randomly <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> It doesn't matter to the minion at all and I'd show it as more effective than daze on one of the targets, about even on two of the targets, a solid effect on two more, a minor effect on one, and largely ineffective on the remaining four.Yeah, I just figure that it's easy enough to all be in 10 on purpose, but it's hard for someone to get unblinded or not be in a zone of darkness sometimes. I'd totally take controllable disadvantage over uncontrollable disadvantage, so I figure they cancel out <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> When it gets down to it, I'm still marking Renew the Troops as a better power by the grade that I gave it... I just think it's a lot less impressive than others might. It doesn't affect the user, but puts him potentially in danger, while still assuming the rest of the party is hurt enough to need it, it requires a hit for optimal use by someone often less optimal at hitting, it's roughly comparable to existing powers - a level 10 utility or level 5 daily. Certainly enough marks to drop it out of high grade, on my book.</blockquote>

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