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Message: <blockquote data-quote="AngryPurpleCyclops" data-source="post: 4708663" data-attributes="member: 82732">last post Plane, I was halfway done when I saw your admonishment.  All of these are "sometimes valuable".  This is the same argument you use to degrade immobilize.  You apply _sometimes_ to it's benefit.  This simply works both ways.  I can see the logic of your side but you keep steam rolling mine.  That's annoying.  There are times when each is better.  I'm really unsure why you can't seem to admit this.  Can you not make the exact same argument about immobilize?I can turn this around and point to many situations that daze won't impede the <insert various monsters> either.  Once again it's hard for me to understand why you can't accept it's pretty close to even each having their benefits in various situations. the rogue can be busy attacking a different creature.  You keep pointing to situations that detract from the immobilize but there are equally as many that detract from daze.  By your own admission above you said it should be used affectively.  lets assume you're going to do that with both not just immobilize.  I can change the word immobilize to daze and use this to counter many statements.  Please stop doing that.  For every use there is a situation that's bad for both.  d the first part of this is great!  I agree we weight things differently.  That's fine.  The rest is garbage.  I'm the one using the power, I pick when and where to deploy it.  I can hit a monster in melee with a pc with immobilize and then when the pc goes he can hit the monster and shift away. You keep focusing on the fact that at higher levels more monsters have reach.  This is offset by the number of powers that let you shift/teleport multiple squares. rogues, warlocks, eladrin, rangers, warlords, wizards, clerics all have ways to get away from reach creatures unharmed.   I agree but i think you're still weighting this with no consideration for the fact that by your own admission we're going to use the powers effectively more often than not.Not really accurate.  I commented on this phenomena before we moved to level 15 and the tangential discussion that arose is really about the relative worth of debilitating powers regardless of level or across all levels.  I fully agree that there are things that make immobilize less effective at epic.  Not to the degree you're trying to imply simply because we're controlling where and when we use our powers and by your own admission we're not apt to do ourselves the disservice of wasting it.at high level a lot of creatures can easily get away from reach 3.  This is simply false and very misleading.  The effect could be orb'd to a -10 or more.  if you're a melee creature being immobilized and orbed is a kill where as daze is a major hindrance but not apt to take you out of the combat completely.  Orb and immobilize is therefor better than daze in most circumstances not involving teleport.  Orb/immobilize a dragon and stay outside his breath weapon and melee range... seems better than having him move in and action point the breath weapon.  again wrong on both counts.  I'm using my powers effectively I promise you.  I have init roughly half the time on the BBEG... how about you?  I almost always have init on at last a few creatures in an encounter, how about you?we've been looking at dailies from 1 to 15... I brought this up before we reached 15 i believe.  I certainly thought it right away if I didn't say it.  But I have a feeling in my posts about levels 1 or 5 I probably mentioned something about "why does everyone seem to think daze is so much better than immobilize"?Finally we're at least finding some middle ground.  I agree with this assessment for the most part.  I think it's better than you imagine in epic because pc's can get away from reach 3 creatures a lot easier than you're giving then credit for and it can lock someone down in epic with orb.  immobilize can have another use entirely.  If you immobilize the ranged creature and the fighter moves adjacent he can't make any attacks without giving away OA.  The fighter doesn't even have to mark him.  In retrospect the various effectiveness across tiers was probably a big part of why we couldn't find a middle ground sooner (does this mean you'll be going back and re-evaluating the heroic powers and upgrading immobilize?  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />.  I've only played in heroic so my experience/perspective is heavily weighted.  I admitted right away that teleport totally hoses immobilize and dazed has added benefits as you get more creatures with minor powers at higher levels.  I still find them comparable at worst in most encounters and immobilize far better in most encounters I'm familiar with.  The ghoul encounter for example.  Turn undead pushes them out of melee range and immobilizes them. what could be better short of disintegrating them <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />Dropped.  I wrote most of this post before I came back and saw you had posted this.</blockquote>

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