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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Infiniti2000" data-source="post: 3297107" data-attributes="member: 31734">So, if not using improved grab, a giant octopus can make 9 grapple attempts? No. Definitely not that natural weapon attacks like you suggest above. Regarding the manufactured weapon, then yes, if taking a normal full attack (sans natural weapons). Since we're attacking with natural weapons, we have to start with that rule, with the relevant sentence here:"Creatures do not receive additional attacks from a high base attack bonus when using natural weapons."Thus, no using your longsword while biting, and thus no grapple checks, trips, etc. while biting.  Then, we look up the section on combining natural weapons:"Some creatures combine attacks with natural and manufactured weapons when they make a full attack. When they do so, the manufactured weapon attack is considered the primary attack unless the creature’s description indicates otherwise and any natural weapons the creature also uses are considered secondary natural attacks. These secondary attacks do not interfere with the primary attack as attacking with an off-hand weapon does, but they take the usual -5 penalty (or -2 with the Multiattack feat) for such attacks, even if the natural weapon used is normally the creature’s primary natural weapon."This is the entirety of what is allowed when attacking with a natural weapon.  What can you combine with a natural weapon?  The answer is obviously "manufactured weapons."  What happens you when attempt to combine natural weapons and other types of weapons?  Nothing, because there are no rules on that.  This gets back to my previous statement where if you want to argue that nothing disallows it . . .So, when you are trying to add in a trip to your natural weapon full attack, you are not substituting legally.  You are, in fact, not combining natural weapons with manufactured weapons.  Thus, you are not applying the above rules and anything goes (e.g. no longer a need for defining the natural weapons as secondary). Of course. Of course.</blockquote>

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