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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Patryn of Elvenshae" data-source="post: 2071665" data-attributes="member: 23094">I didn't claim you were.  I was more interested in your logic chain.So, step through this with me.Q:  Is a grapple check exactly like a melee attack roll?A:  No.  Numerous differences exist.  For instance, size modifiers change depending on whether what you are making is actually a melee attack roll with a weapon or a grapple check.  Therefore, a grapple check differs in some ways from an actual melee attack roll.Since the two are not identical, it is a fallacy to assume that all the rules which apply to one necessarily apply to the other.  The possibility that they do exists, but it is not mandated.So, on what do you base your assertion that in an opposed roll situation, that a Natural 20 is an automatic success for the attacker and a Natural 1 is an automatic failure for the defender?Why, on this:There is a problem here.Specifically, you assert that grapple checks are like attack rolls and therefore follow all the rules of melee attack rolls.  (And, by extension, Disarm checks operate similarly.)The problem, of course, is that while Grappling (or Disarming) both the attacker and defender make a check.  Therefore, both the attacker and the defender must all the rules for melee attack rolls - including the chances of auto-success or auto-failure.  The line "Although the defender’s roll is called an 'opposed attack roll,' the defender is really just setting the DC for the attacker" sets up an unsupportable position.  Given that the attacker also makes an "opposed attack roll," the sentence could easily be rewritten as "Although the attacker's roll is called an 'opposed attack roll,' the attacker is really just setting the DC for the defender."  Note that those who might argue that, as a standard rule in D&D, the offense must attempt to overcome the defense's DC should check the rules for spell saving throws.There is no text within the rules that suggest that there should be any difference in the way attackers or defenders are treated, since they are both making checks which follow all the rules of melee attack rolls.  The only text to support this position is in an outdated FAQ file - and an FAQ file carries no RAW weight.Furthermore, if Grapple checks follow all the rules of melee attack rolls, then grappling someone under the effects of a Blur spell carries a 20% miss chance.  Anyone attempting to grapple someone under the effects of a Mirror Image spell has a 1 / X chance of actually grappling the correct target.  Neither of these spells, and none of the descriptions of Grappling or Disarming, contain any text to the contrary.  Do you rule that the above spells have any effect on a continuing grapple?If you don't, then you have contradicted yourself, since grappling, by your own admission, no longer follows all the rules of melee attack rolls.</blockquote>

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