Grapple troubles for creatures with Improved Grab

[Deaths_Fist]

While using the Mind Flayer and Hook Horror monsters in my campaign, I've confused myself as to how their grapple checks work once they've got a hold on someone. For Mind Flayers, once they've Improved Grabbed someone, do they get four checks (one for each natural attack since grappling is an attack action for each grapple roll), or are they suppossed to get only one? Or does it use BAB instead, granting the Flayer two attempts? It seems so easy at that rate to eat brains and make one's players angry. Same trouble with Hook Horros: once they've grabbed and bitten in a round, can they then make three grapple checks (one for each natural attack), or do they get only one or does it go off iterative attack bonus instead? Help, before my players get any more angry at me!

 

[GlassJaw]

I've done considerable research on grappling and I've asked this question before. Unfortunately, I don't think there is an "official" answer on this. Some people say based on BAB, others say natural attacks.

My personal feeling is that it should be based on BAB, just like the PC's. As you mentioned, the mind flayer suddenly gets a lot more powerful if it gets 4 grapple checks with each of its tentacles. Debate on the realism of mind flayers to begin with, I don't find that very realistic.

Also, the PHB makes a distinction between a grapple check and attacking a natural weapon while grappling. That leads me to believe that a grapple check isn't based on the creature's normal natural attacks.

Also remember, a grapple check, although similar, is NOT an attack roll.

 

[smetzger]

How about Haste? Do you get an extra grapple when under haste?

 

[Deaths_Fist]

How about Haste? Do you get an extra grapple when under haste?

Oh, man, another good question. I'd say it gives one an extra grapple check, as long as all you're doing is making grapple checks. It makes sense, and works fine for PCs. If only it solved the debate with regards to monsters and their damn natural attacks. Has there ever been any word from The Sage on this?

Sigh.

 

[Liquidsabre]

I was under the impression that the number of grapple attempts for a character is equal to either = Iterative Attacks (BAB) or Natural Attacks. Not sure how mixing up both iterative and natural attacks in one character might look like though.

 

[Iku Rex]

The closest thing to an answer I've found in the rules:

Rake (Ex): A creature with this special attack gains extra natural attacks when it grapples its foe. Normally, a monster can attack with only one of its natural weapons while grappling, but a monster with the rake ability usually gains two additional claw attacks that it can use only against a grappled foe. Rake attacks are not subject to the usual –4 penalty for attacking with a natural weapon in a grapple.
A monster with the rake ability must begin its turn grappling to use its rake—it can’t begin a grapple and rake in the same turn. -- MM glossary

 

[Thanee]

The grapple rules only mention that you gain attacks according to your iterative BAB attacks, so that's what they use, I guess.

This means, however, that once Improved Grab has been used, all other natural attacks cannot be used anymore (also because you can only use one natural weapon during a grapple usually), since you have to switch to the iterative BAB attacks, which also do not get used with natural weapons.

I'd therefore allow to make the remaining natural attacks of a full-attack action as if the grapple had not started yet, and afterwards have the grapple begin.

I'd not let a creature make one special grapple action per natural attack.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Deaths_Fist]

I'd therefore allow to make the remaining natural attacks of a full-attack action as if the grapple had not started yet, and afterwards have the grapple begin.

I'd not let a creature make one special grapple action per natural attack.

I'm liking where I think you're going with this, as this makes the wording of Improved Grab for creatures like the Mind Flayer much more clear. Basically, the creature would have the option to try attaching it's tentacle one at a time with regular natural attacks plus improved grab, or to try attacing all of them at once each round thereafter with a number of tries per round equal to its iterative number of attacks from BAB (two in the case of Mr. Flayer), yes?

What then, however, of the Hook Horror? Using it's claw/claw/bite routine, it specifically says in its entry that the grapple check made after hitting with both claws replaces its bite attack. Simple enough, but what about following rounds? One check each time, or do I switch to BAB then?

All this wouldn't be an issue if one of my players wasn't bothered by an encounter with a huge advanced hook horror, whose BAB would be high enough in this instance to give the creature even more grapple checks than using its three natural attacks to determine its number of grapple checks, since its BAB is enough for four attacks overall, though the iterative grapple checks would be increasingly smaller. Then again this brings up the question of BAB for monsters: are monsters limited to the BAB for their first 20 Hit Dice like PCs are (following thereafter the epic-level 1/2 progression), or do they continue the same progression for their type no matter how many HD they have?

Another Hook Horror question, now that I think of it: given the creature's possession of Improved Trip, many of its foes likely end up on the ground. The question is this: do prone foes have a penalty on grapple checks? I would think so, as being on one's back is no way to start a grapple successfully, but can't find a specific rule one way or the other. Not particularly important to the discussion at hand, but still on my mind.

 

[Deaths_Fist]

The closest thing to an answer I've found in the rules: <b>Normally, a monster can attack with only one of its natural weapons while grappling.</b>

Certainly true, but while we know only one of the natural <i>weapons</i> are being used (tentacles or bite in these instances), this doesn't tell us how many <i>attacks</i> said creature receives. Though it could be a clue: taken literally, this could mean that according the entry, a mind flayer would get four grapple checks (one for each of its tentacle attacks) while the hook horror would receive only one bite check each round. An interesting possibility, but as stated elsewhere, a mind flayer with four checks every round to try to attach all four tentacles could be too challenging.

This leads me to yet another question: how does a PC go about resisting this attack? say the flayer has all four tentacles attached at the beginning of the PC's turn. Does one successful grapple check free the PC from the flayer's hold, or does it simply unattach one tentacle? Or does it release him from all the tentacles but leave the PC still "held" so far as the grappling rules are concerned? What can other PCs do to help their companion?

 

[sfedi]

I would treat this as a pin.

In particular, I´d treat the Mindflayer as a special creature that once it succeeded at 4 consecutive pins (i.e. attached it´s four tentacles) it can automatically kill you.

I´d treat each succesfull grapple check made by the victim or someone helping, to break one of the monster´s pins (i.e. each succesfull grapple check frees the victim of one tentacle).