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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Lord Zardoz" data-source="post: 578954" data-attributes="member: 704">Re: Re: A few questions of my ownI would like to see that FAQ myself, if you could post a link to it.  I interpret the -20 rule as a way to allow unusually large creatres like Dragons to grapple multiple creatures.  However, I am aware of no creatures that possess Claw/Claw/Bite type attack routines that also have iterative attacks.  A Roc gets 2 Claws at +21 Melee.  If we use your answer to my last question, that gives it +12 for Str, and -4 for size, resulting in a Bab of +13.  But the Roc gets no iterative attacks.Still, so far so good.I am inclined to agree with your DM call for rend, but on a different basis.  I do not equate natural attacks to light weapons while grappling.  I recall seeing somewhere that creatures that do real damage unarmed do that damage while grappling.  And the troll Rend is not only a natural attack, but it requires that the troll gets both hands on the target.  When grappling, a creature is likely to use all of its grasping limbs to grapple unless the target fits in the palm of its proverbial hand.Now I really want to see that FAQ.  It sounds like a response to someone asking to use both hands for unarmed attacks while grappling.  I see grappling as the unarmed equivalent of a two handed weapon. However, the MM also says that the primary attack is usually listed at one bonus, and the secondary attacks at -5.  With the Troll both of its claw attacks are at the higher bonus.  Ghouls have Bite listed as the primary attack.  So should we then assume that Trolls do not bite when attacking and that Ghouls grapple with their mouths?Thanks for the advice on how to get Bab from those stats.  I was already aware of the Size modifier to grapple, though, so I am in no danger of short changing creatures for being big.END COMMUNICATION</blockquote>

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