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<blockquote data-quote="Zene" data-source="post: 7119826" data-attributes="member: 6863496">I already have Enlarge/Reduce (I swapped out my AT 3 out-of-school spell for it when I hit AT 7 and opened up 2nd-level spell slots). I still find myself preferring to rage due to the damage reduction (it is a massive benefit); and of course rage gives advantage as well. I only intend to use Enlarge when I need to grapple large opponents; but the few times that's come up so far, my damage capabilities have been needed more than my grappling capabilities. I'm sure it will be useful in the future though.I know the accepted rule is that Champion is a trap, but I believe that is for straight fighters. Have you seen any math done on Champion when combined with constant advantage and potentially doubled sneak attack dice? I find it *very* hard to believe that in that situation, 4x/rest d8s and/or Precision/Reposte would actually contribute more. But if there's math on it showing otherwise I'd definitely reconsider.:::::::::::::Edit: Just did the math myself. With flametongue, Champion is the clear winner. With vorpal (which is the better way to go regardless), Battlemaster just slightly edges ahead (33.5 average dpr vs. 32.1 average dpr), *if* there are 4 rounds of combat or less per short rest. But the real takeaway, IMO, is that either way, that's not great DPR for level 15, so I should be focusing on being a better grappler/tank/utility player instead of trying to chase DPR. In which case, Champion is the clear loser, since it brings nothing at L3 but DPR.So you've convinced me! Battlemaster is the way to go if I do take fighter to 3. Still not sure, though, if I should go Battlemaster 3 now, get three levels of rogue now, or do some combo of the two.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Zene, post: 7119826, member: 6863496"] I already have Enlarge/Reduce (I swapped out my AT 3 out-of-school spell for it when I hit AT 7 and opened up 2nd-level spell slots). I still find myself preferring to rage due to the damage reduction (it is a massive benefit); and of course rage gives advantage as well. I only intend to use Enlarge when I need to grapple large opponents; but the few times that's come up so far, my damage capabilities have been needed more than my grappling capabilities. I'm sure it will be useful in the future though. I know the accepted rule is that Champion is a trap, but I believe that is for straight fighters. Have you seen any math done on Champion when combined with constant advantage and potentially doubled sneak attack dice? I find it *very* hard to believe that in that situation, 4x/rest d8s and/or Precision/Reposte would actually contribute more. But if there's math on it showing otherwise I'd definitely reconsider. ::::::::::::: Edit: Just did the math myself. With flametongue, Champion is the clear winner. With vorpal (which is the better way to go regardless), Battlemaster just slightly edges ahead (33.5 average dpr vs. 32.1 average dpr), *if* there are 4 rounds of combat or less per short rest. But the real takeaway, IMO, is that either way, that's not great DPR for level 15, so I should be focusing on being a better grappler/tank/utility player instead of trying to chase DPR. In which case, Champion is the clear loser, since it brings nothing at L3 but DPR. So you've convinced me! Battlemaster is the way to go if I do take fighter to 3. Still not sure, though, if I should go Battlemaster 3 now, get three levels of rogue now, or do some combo of the two. [/QUOTE]

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