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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Izerath" data-source="post: 1771469" data-attributes="member: 6743">OK now that you've all got yourselves twisted into a pretzel.....Explain to me why the Multi-attack feat exists then.....I apologize in advance and mean no offense to anyone, but I don't think anyone is correct so far. I had this arguement (yes arguement) with one of my players, which forced me to drive home the point of law in the rules, something which I rather abhor personally. In this case I was justified. Also, apologies for the long post, but it's not an easy topic to cover.....Here is a summary of how I interpret the rules on grappling for PCs and then Monsters: For PCs, based on SRD 3.5 with interpretation:- Initiating a Grapple is a melee attack action. If you have multiple attacks and choose a Full-Round Attack action, you can choose to initiate a grapple on each successive melee attack, at successively lower base attack bonuses of course, until you succeed. This means if you fail to grapple the first time, you can try a second time, etc. at successively lower BABs. - Once you succeed at initiating a grapple and you Maintain the Grapple, you have certain “Grappling Options” available to use. - If you use a Full-Round Attack action and attempt to initiate a grapple, once you succeed at initiating the grapple and you choose to maintain it, it also means you can use certain “Grappling Options” for successive remaining attacks, so long as those options only require a melee attack to execute. Now that's how things go down with humanoid characters. In general, we're talking bipeds here. Here's an example with a monk:Jamill the monk wants to wrestle a hobgoblin. He moves to the hobgoblin (Move action) and initiates a grapple (single melee attack, which uses his remaining Standard action). - Step 1: AoO – Jamill has Improved Grapple so we bypass AoOs, - Step 2: Melee touch attack - Jamill succeeded and - Step 3: Opposed Grapple checks - Jamill succeeded. At this point under Step 3, it says on pg. 156 “If you succeed, you and your target are now grappling, and you deal damage to the target as if with an unarmed strike.” The grappling initiation sequence is clear – you deal damage at the start of the grapple (Step 3). You are not considered grappling at the start of the action, thus you do not receive the choice to use “Grappling Options.” Lastly, - Step 4: You have the option to maintain the grapple and move into the target’s square. Maintaining the grapple is the only way you can have the “If You’re Grappling” options (p156 v3.5) available to you. Jamill decides to hold on to his foe.If the hobgoblin does not escape during his action, Jamil can full attack the following round using multiple attacks to use any GRAPPLING OPTION he desires; deal damage, pin, etc.Now, consider "Monsters."From the SRD 3.5 on Monsters:AttackThis line shows the single attack the creature makes with an attack action. In most cases, this is also the attack the creature uses when making an attack of opportunity as well. The attack line provides the weapon used (natural or manufactured), attack bonus, and form of attack (melee or ranged). The attack bonus given includes modifications for size and Strength (for melee attacks) or Dexterity (for ranged attacks). A creature with the Weapon Finesse feat can use its Dexterity modifier on melee attacks. If the creature uses natural attacks, the natural weapon given here is the creature’s primary natural weapon. If the creature has several different weapons at its disposal, the alternatives are shown, with each different attack separated by the word “or.” A creature can use one of its secondary natural weapons when making an attack action, but if it does it takes an attack penalty, as noted in the Full Attack section below. The damage that each attack deals is noted parenthetically. Damage from an attack is always at least 1 point, even if a subtraction from a die roll reduces the result to 0 or lower.Full AttackThis line shows all the physical attacks the creature makes when it uses a full-round action to make a full attack. It gives the number of attacks along with the weapon, attack bonus, and form of attack (melee or ranged). - The first entry is for the creature’s primary weapon, with an attack bonus including modifications for size and Strength (for melee attacks) or Dexterity (for ranged attacks). A creature with the Weapon Finesse feat can use its Dexterity modifier on melee attacks. - The remaining weapons are secondary, and attacks with them are made with a –5 penalty to the attack roll, no matter how many there are. Creatures with the Multiattack feat take only a –2 penalty on secondary attacks.- The damage that each attack deals is noted parenthetically. Damage from an attack is always at least 1 point, even if a subtraction from a die roll reduces the result to 0 or lower.- A creature’s primary attack damage includes its full Strength modifier (1-1/2 times its Strength bonus if the attack is with the creature’s sole natural weapon) and is given first. - Secondary attacks add only 1/2 the creature’s Strength bonus and are given second in the parentheses. - If any attacks also have some special effect other than damage, that information is given here.- Unless noted otherwise, creatures using natural weapons deal double damage on critical hits.EVERYTHING you need is here. If there is more than one primary attack listed, it gets that many during a full attack action. A carrion crawler gets 8 tentacle attacks; An aboleth gets 4 tentacle attacks; An ape gets 2 claw attacks and a bite. You should get the point by now.Lets use a chimera as an example:CHIMERALarge Magical BeastHit Dice:    9d10+27 (76 hp)Initiative:    +1Speed:    30 ft. (6 squares), fly 50 ft. (poor)Armor Class:    19 (–1 size, +1 Dex, +9 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 18Base Attack/Grapple:    +9/+17Attack:    Bite +12 melee (2d6+4)Full Attack:    Bite +12 melee (2d6+4) and bite +12 melee (1d8+4) and gore +12 melee (1d8+4) and 2 claws +10 melee (1d6+2)Space/Reach:    10 ft./5 ft.Special Attacks:    Breath weaponSpecial Qualities:    Darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, scentSaves:    Fort +9, Ref +7, Will +6Abilities:    Str 19, Dex 13, Con 17, Int 4, Wis 13, Cha 10Skills:    Hide +1*, Listen +9, Spot +9Feats:    Alertness, Hover, Iron Will, MultiattackEnvironment:    Temperate hillsOrganization:    Solitary, pride (3–5), or flight (6–13)Challenge Rating:    7Treasure:    StandardAlignment:    Usually chaotic evilAdvancement:    10–13 HD (Large); 14–27 HD (Huge)Level Adjustment:    +2 (cohort)In a FULL ATTACK ACTION, the chimera gets 2 bite attacks at +12, one gore attack at +12 (all primary weapons, one for each head) and 2 claw attacks at +10 (secondary attacks, only -2 since it has Multiattack feat).That's right. 5 attacks. Ready? It gets worse.The chimera is going to attempt to GRAPPLE (a Special Attack) with its jaws (bite attacks).- The chimera moves in to grapple, provoking an AoO. Then it makes a melee TOUCH attack having to hit the opponent with its first bite attack. (+12) - Then it makes an opposed grapple check against the opponent (+17). Let's say for simplicity that it succeeds and grapples its opponent and it wants to MAINTAIN its hold on the target, locking its iron jaws around the poor target. - Now the chimera has only the "IF YOU'RE GRAPPLING" options (pg. 156) available for the remainder of its attacks, assuming it wants to maintain its hold on the victim. That's right, 4 more attacks, so long as they fall under the GRAPPLING OPTIONS. So, it holds on to the poor victim as it chows down with its other bite (+12, -4 because its grappling, so +8), gore the victim (+8) and Maul the victim with both claws (+6 for each).Then the victim gets an action and tries to escape. Against a +17 Grapple modifier, the victim has little chance to succeed, and fails to escape.....if the victim has multiple attacks and decides to use a full attack action to attempt to escape, he can make multiple attempts at successively lower bonuses as normal. For my example, he fails.....Next round the grapple continues (since the victim did not escape and the chimera did not let him loose) and it decides to move with its captured prey, taking to the air. It has to make an opposed grapple check to move half its speed (under GRAPPLING OPTIONS) and easily does so.....our poor victim is the chimera's next meal.....Pretty grim, but this is why monsters are monsters. Grappling removes the 5-foot step options, makes an awesome equalizer when its 1 on 4 or more, and rightly so, Grappling monsters are fearsome creatures. Use them that way and it will generate much more respect for the monsters from your players. One chimera is hardly a pushover. For that matter, any monster with multiple attacks should be feared. They're MONSTERS!!!!They key advantage to grappling with multiple attacks is that your opponent has to escape or he cannot move. Monsters that can grapple will quickly take down a PC, especially if your players try to do anything else but escape.Whew that took a while......</blockquote>

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