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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Izerath" data-source="post: 1775470" data-attributes="member: 6743">OK Reset the discussion.Alright – I understand your points, but there are some flaws. I had to tear apart grappling to get to them, but here’s what I was out to understand by doing so.My question is this: If a monster has 8 tentacles, all of which are its primary natural weapon, why can it not use the primary weapon multiple times just like a fighter can use his primary weapon multiple times using his BAB? Should the creature really be penalized? I say NO. Here’s my argument:In the PH  (pg 156, also in SRD 3.5) it states:The following are considered attack actions (those that take the place an attack rather than being a Standard action or Move Action). Per the SRD and PH, you can attempt one of these actions in place of each of your attacks: Activate a Magic ItemAttack Your OpponentDamage Your OpponentEscape from a GrapplePin Your OpponentBreak Another’s PinUse Opponent’s WeaponThe rest of the actions require either Standard, Move or Full-Round actions to execute, thus can only be done once.Cast a SpellDraw a Light WeaponMoveRetrieve a Spell ComponentUNDERSTANDING A WEAPON’S CATEGORYNow, a creature has two categories of weapons, just as a PC does – primary (for a PC this is the dominant hand) and secondary (for a PC this is the off-hand).A PC uses a primary weapon in his dominant hand and a SECONDARY weapon in his off-hand. Furthermore, the secondary weapon used by the PC must be a light weapon. A PC uses his BAB to determine the  total number of attacks it gets using his primary weapon. Secondary weapons simply give a PC one additional attack per round.A creature on the other hand gets X number of primary weapon attacks, and Y number of secondary weapon attacks. It does not use BAB to determine the number of attacks, it just gets that many primary and that many secondary attacks each round it uses the Full Attack action. Otherwise in a Standard action, it gets one attack with its primary weapon category. WHERE'S THE BEEF?So here’s my beef with the current consensus:If a PC with a BAB of +20 is allowed 4 attacks using its primary weapon, then why can’t the octopus, carrion crawler or any other creature with multiple attacks with its primary weapon not get that same benefit? I don’t see the difference. A bite is a bite, a tentacle is a tentacle, a sword is a sword. Each creature, whether PC or monster, has primary and secondary weapons. In the PC’s case, it uses BAB to determine the total number of attacks and is not allowed to use secondary weapons (off-hand) during a grapple. The same rule applies to the monster. It is able to use its primary weapon to get multiple attacks, just as the PC does. Denying the monster his multiple attacks while grappling, when they are his primary weapon, is the same as denying the fighter his multiple attacks with his sword while he is grappling. Splitting hairs because a monster has multiple limbs, and we don’t, is incorrect and certainly biased against the creature. We as humans have trouble grasping the concept of multiple primary limbs because we will never have them. The rules assume that a primary weapon is the same as our own principle of a primary weapon used in our dominant hand. We can use it quickly and proficiently. So why is the monster denied this simple principle in the current consensus?Monsters do not use BAB. It says that in the SRD right up front. It also clearly states under the monster statistics that in a full-round action, a monster gets x number of primary weapon attacks and Y number of secondary weapon attacks. SRD 3.5 states:So how do we interpret this for grappling? Well, when applying the concept to grappling, both PCs and monster cannot use secondary weapon attacks. They lose them, but that does not deny either of them using all of their PRIMARY weapon attacks. PCs just happen to base the number of attacks off their BAB, while monsters do not.SRD 3.5 states:By Attack Your Opponent’s inclusion in the “replaces an attack” group, it means that you can use this action multiple times in the same round. Furthermore, the last statement should be rewritten to clarify that you cannot use secondary weapons while grappling. Currently, it does not support proper interpretation for monsters.Even the Rake special ability supports my view. It states:The difference lies in the weapon used (primary or secondary) and not in the # of attacks. Why would it state in Rake that the ‘-4 penalty for attacking with a natural weapon in a grapple’ does not apply? That implies that a creature with multiple attacks with its primary natural weapon should get to take them! Under normal circumstances, the -4 penalty would apply to each of those attacks while grappling. However, when using Rake it clearly states it gets 2 extra claw attacks and the -4 penalty is waived.To quote Pinotage, I agree with his statement as he was close in his interpretation, but he let BAB confuse him and get in the way. MONSTER DON’T USE BAB. Forget about it. I’ve inserted text in [ ] to highlight the interpretations as I see them.To summarize:1. PCs and monsters have two weapon categories: Primary and Secondary.2. PC’s use BAB to determine how many primary weapon attacks they get in a round, and a secondary weapon only grants one additional attack per round when using the full attack option as a full-round action.3. Monsters do not use BAB. They simply get a specified number of attacks for each weapon (primary and secondary weapons) when using full attack.4. When grappling, grapplers can only use primary weapons. PCs get a number of attack as allowed by their BAB, while monsters retain the total number of attacks for their primary weapon as specified by their Full Attack monster entry. This assumes both grapplers are using full-round actions and the full attack option to grapple.That is my case. I believe I am correct in this, So much so that I have decided to write The Sage on it to make sure I am getting it ‘right.’ I’d write up an example, but this already took me too long to write as it is…..</blockquote>

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