Grappling Fix - Denying Size Modifiers

[Wolfwood2]

One of the problems with grappling is that it's almost impossible to escape from a big monster once it has you. Big monsters almost always have a high strength and BAB as it is. Add on +8 for being Huge (for example), and they're nigh unescapable.

Here's what I'm thinking.

"When making a grapple check to escape a grapple, your opponent does not get any size modifier added to his check to keep hold and you do not get any size penalty to your grapple check to escape."

This makes a certain amount of sense. Let's look at a half-orc barbarian up against a Tyranosaurus Rex.

If the half-orc is trying to grapple the T-Rex, then he has to fit his arms around that huge body and somehow push it around. A daunting task even for a hero.

If the T-Rex is trying to grapple the Half-orc, then it's either got its jaws clamped around him or it's trying to push him around with one giant taloned foot. Either way, the half-orc just has to push that one specific part of the body away from him. He has to either force the jaws apart or push the foot to one side. It's strength versus strength, but the size of the opponent isn't as much of a factor.

Thoughts?

 

[Archade]

I think size is important -- especially on a big creature. Keep in mind that a grappled big guy loses his dex bonus to AC (and is vulnerable to sneak attacks) unless he takes a -20 to his grapple check.

As well, it really promotes the use of the Escape Artist skill.

That being said, big grapplers are very very dangerous. One of the nastiest things I ever did was have an advanced shambling mound grapple someone and sink down under water.

Another option to assist grapplers is give someone trying to escape a grapple a +4 to their grapple check for wiggly-ness...

 

[Celebrim]

One of the problems with grappling is that it's almost impossible to escape from a big monster once it has you. Big monsters almost always have a high strength and BAB as it is. Add on +8 for being Huge (for example), and they're nigh unescapable.

Here's what I'm thinking.

"When making a grapple check to escape a grapple, your opponent does not get any size modifier added to his check to keep hold and you do not get any size penalty to your grapple check to escape."

This makes a certain amount of sense. Let's look at a half-orc barbarian up against a Tyranosaurus Rex.

If the half-orc is trying to grapple the T-Rex, then he has to fit his arms around that huge body and somehow push it around. A daunting task even for a hero.

If the T-Rex is trying to grapple the Half-orc, then it's either got its jaws clamped around him or it's trying to push him around with one giant taloned foot. Either way, the half-orc just has to push that one specific part of the body away from him. He has to either force the jaws apart or push the foot to one side. It's strength versus strength, but the size of the opponent isn't as much of a factor.

Thoughts?

I'm not totally opposed to this, and in fact have implemented the same basic suggestion with regard to the the Escape Artist skill negating a grappler's bonus for size class.

But I don't think you can justify it in the since of realism alone. Suppose I'm grappled by a hypothetical large very low strength creature - say a 'Green Pudding'. The real problem I have is that I've got 2000lbs of semi-congelled slime sitting on top of me. The fact that the green pudding is STR 8 is of small consequence when it comes to escaping the oozes clutches. Shouldn't this be reflected by the rules too?

And while you are right that huge creatures wouldn't be able to use thier full strength to grab things that are much smaller than they are, its not clear that that isn't taken into account in the game as is. Afterall, the carrying capacity of a large creature is much higher than its strength score alone would suggest. 'Realisticly', large creatures would be much stronger than they are, with a raw strength many times human normal, and thier attacks if they hit would be even more overwhelming. That smaller creatures only bear a portion of the attack and not the full brunt of it seems to be the default assumption.

Besides which, if something eight times your size puts its weight on you, its going to pin you down pretty good. Maybe the rules are just being realistic in that regard?

One thing I don't like about the grapple rules, but have never figured out what I want to do about, is that its much much easier to resist being hurt in a grapple than it is to escape one - especially if you assume both participants know what they are doing. Maybe what you need isn't a rule that makes escape easier, but one that makes avoiding getting hurt while being grappled easier?

 

[Wolfwood2]

But I don't think you can justify it in the since of realism alone. Suppose I'm grappled by a hypothetical large very low strength creature - say a 'Green Pudding'. The real problem I have is that I've got 2000lbs of semi-congelled slime sitting on top of me. The fact that the green pudding is STR 8 is of small consequence when it comes to escaping the oozes clutches. Shouldn't this be reflected by the rules too?

No, because being grappled by a big monster is no fun. (And believe me, I've seen this on both sides of the table, playing and DMing.) You basically get to roll a D20 with no chance of success once per round and hope that the rest of the party can kill the creature before you die. I'm not really trying to justify it on 'realism' grounds; that was simply a conceptual explanation.

I don't have any qualms about nerfing big monsters because PCs are not big monsters. For a regular medium-sized PC focused on grappling, he'll be pretty much as good as he ever was. It's only monsters who won't be as good at grappling, and how good a monster is at anything is pretty much arbitrary.

One thing I don't like about the grapple rules, but have never figured out what I want to do about, is that its much much easier to resist being hurt in a grapple than it is to escape one - especially if you assume both participants know what they are doing. Maybe what you need isn't a rule that makes escape easier, but one that makes avoiding getting hurt while being grappled easier?

As long as the PC can take some kind of action per round and have a 20%+ chance of success, I'm fine. What troubles me are grapple checks so high that even strength-based fighters auto-fail, much less spellcasters or rogues.

 

[wolff96]

I always liked the solution from Monte Cook's AE line --

When using Escape Artist to get out of a grapple, size modifiers don't apply to the check. Makes it a lot easier for heroes to wriggle out of the grasp of huge monsters.

 

[Wiseblood]

I'm thinking of implementing a penalty to grapple checks equal to the sum of the damage dealt in the round to said grappling entity. Not many creatures should be willing or able to be beat on while they 'rassle' and have a chance of winning. This would make single handedly defeating the grapple of the T-Rex pretty darn hard though.

 

[Archade]

Hey ... you could just require a Concentration check to maintain a grapple ...

Where would I exactly find the AE rule for escaping from a grapple (what page please?) that negates the size penalty?

 

[Triangleman27]

My suggestion: instead of special size modifiers, just use the inverse of the regular size modifiers.

 

[Derro]

I always liked the solution from Monte Cook's AE line --

When using Escape Artist to get out of a grapple, size modifiers don't apply to the check. Makes it a lot easier for heroes to wriggle out of the grasp of huge monsters.

Pg. 192

That's a pretty sweet fix. It would make wriggly halflings (or xvarts or chokers) harder for PCs to keep a good hold on. And as far as PCs fighting big guys, if you're in the giant monster killing business make sure you have the skills to pull it off. For primary combatants the base attack pays of for a while but by the time it doesn't you better have ranks in Escape Artist.

I can't help but feel sorry for the heavily armored fighter though. You know all that guy has is full ranks in Ride and a huge armor check penalty.

There's also the Clever Wrestler and Close-Quarters Fighting feats. I seem to remember another one that lets you apply damage done as a modifier to escape the grapple.

 

[wolff96]

I can't help but feel sorry for the heavily armored fighter though. You know all that guy has is full ranks in Ride and a huge armor check penalty.

Actually, if you look in Transcendence (also for AE) there's a feat for Warmains -- the AE version of that heavily armed fighter.

It doesn't help THEM to grapple, but when a creature is trying to grapple them, the Warmain gets to add his AC from armor to the check. So you get no benefit if you're trying to pin the slippery magic-user, but you get to add the AC bonus from your armor to any checks when the T-Rex is trying to gobble you up. And considering that a +5 Definitive Harness gives +17 AC, that's not a minor bonus...