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General Tabletop Discussion
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
Grappling Revision
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<blockquote data-quote="Dire Human" data-source="post: 4834353" data-attributes="member: 57504"><p>It's all in the presentation.</p><p> </p><p> 3rd Edition Grapple rules, like a lot of "sub-system" rules, were a mess; they didn't work like anything else in the rulebook (turn undead), they were extremely situational (bull rush), and the initial penalties meant that only those who took the associated Improved feat had any chance of success (disarm, trip, two-weapon fighting). I recall a 3.5 Half-Orc Monk who, upon our DM hearing he was taking the Improved Grapple feat, had a <em>flowchart</em> on the back of his character sheet.</p><p> </p><p> The funny part? Everyone at the table understood the rules much better once they saw that flowchart.</p><p> </p><p>So let's make this easy, huh? The following isn't exactly in rulebook-ready format, but since it's a houserule you're going to have to explain to your players anyway, I think it works. RangerWickett, I hope you don't mind if I re-organize the rules a little, and feel free to tell me if I missed anything so I can add it in.</p><p> </p><p> <strong><span style="font-size: 15px">Grapple</span></strong></p><p><strong><span style="font-size: 15px"></span></strong></p><p><strong>What is grappling, exactly? What does it let me do?</strong></p><p>These grappling rules are for cinematic situations that the Grab rules don't cover: surprise attacks, dragging an uncooperative enemy, and even hostage-taking.</p><p></p><p></p><p><strong>How can I start a grapple?</strong></p><p><strong></strong>You need at least one hand free to grapple, which is used to maintain the grapple. If you can't occupy every square the target occupies (e.g., you're Medium and the target is Large), you can't Grapple it; try a Grab instead.</p><p></p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>Standard Action</strong>: Make a Strength attack vs. the target's Reflex. On a hit, you grapple the target and slide into the target's space. Both you and the target gain the Grappled condition until the end of your turn.</li> </ul><p></p><p> <strong><span style="font-size: 12px">Grappled</span></strong></p><p></p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">You grant combat advantage.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">You can't flank an enemy.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">You can't take opportunity actions or immediate actions against creatures that don't have the Grapped condition.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">You're slowed, but can't move unless you move those in your square that are grappled as well. (see below)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">You take a -2 penalty to skill checks.</li> </ul><p><strong> </strong></p><p><strong>Until the end of your turn? How am I supposed to hold on?</strong></p><p>You can hold on by spending a minor action.</p><p></p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>Minor Action</strong>: You sustain the grapple until the end of your next turn.</li> </ul><p></p><p><strong>What can I do in a grapple?</strong></p><p>In general, you can do anything you could normally do outside of a grapple; however, if you make an attack that doesn't target someone in the grapple, you provoke opportunity attacks from those in the grapple.</p><p></p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>Standard Action</strong>: Make a Strength attack vs. the target's Fortitude. If it hits, you and the target are knocked prone. If you don't want to be prone, just the target, you can end the grapple as a free action (see below).</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>Move Action</strong>: Make a Strength attack vs. the target's Fortitude. If it hits, you can move the target up to your speed (don't forget that you're Slowed!).</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>Immediate Interrupt</strong>: If the target provokes an opportunity attack from you, and you hit, you can instead deal no damage with the attack to cancel the triggering action.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>Immediate Interrupt</strong>: If the target provokes an opportunity attack from you, you can instead attempt to escape as an immediate action.</li> </ul><p> </p><p><strong>How do I escape?</strong></p><p></p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>Move Action</strong>: Make an Athletics check vs. the target's Fortitude, or an Acrobatics check vs. the target's Reflex (don't forget the -2 to skill checks!). If you succeed, you escape, and can shift to the nearest empty square adjacent to the target. If there are none, you fall prone in your square.</li> </ul><p>Also, if forced movement moves either of you out of the other's square, the Grappled condition ends for both of you.</p><p></p><p></p><p><strong>What if I started the grapple, but want to end it?</strong></p><p><strong></strong></p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong> Free Action</strong>: You release the target from the grapple, and the target can shift to the nearest empty square adjacent to you. If there are none, the target falls prone in its square. Both you and the target no longer have the Grappling condition.</li> </ul><p>However, if you're released from a grapple but want to maintain it, you can attempt so as an immediate interrupt.</p><p></p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>Immediate Interrupt</strong>: If the target releases you from a grapple as a free action, you can attempt to maintain it. Make a Strength attack vs. the target's Reflex. On a hit, both you and the target maintain the grapple until the end of your next turn.</li> </ul></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Dire Human, post: 4834353, member: 57504"] It's all in the presentation. 3rd Edition Grapple rules, like a lot of "sub-system" rules, were a mess; they didn't work like anything else in the rulebook (turn undead), they were extremely situational (bull rush), and the initial penalties meant that only those who took the associated Improved feat had any chance of success (disarm, trip, two-weapon fighting). I recall a 3.5 Half-Orc Monk who, upon our DM hearing he was taking the Improved Grapple feat, had a [I]flowchart[/I] on the back of his character sheet. The funny part? Everyone at the table understood the rules much better once they saw that flowchart. So let's make this easy, huh? The following isn't exactly in rulebook-ready format, but since it's a houserule you're going to have to explain to your players anyway, I think it works. RangerWickett, I hope you don't mind if I re-organize the rules a little, and feel free to tell me if I missed anything so I can add it in. [B][SIZE=4]Grapple [/SIZE] What is grappling, exactly? What does it let me do?[/B] These grappling rules are for cinematic situations that the Grab rules don't cover: surprise attacks, dragging an uncooperative enemy, and even hostage-taking. [B]How can I start a grapple? [/B]You need at least one hand free to grapple, which is used to maintain the grapple. If you can't occupy every square the target occupies (e.g., you're Medium and the target is Large), you can't Grapple it; try a Grab instead. [LIST] [*][B]Standard Action[/B]: Make a Strength attack vs. the target's Reflex. On a hit, you grapple the target and slide into the target's space. Both you and the target gain the Grappled condition until the end of your turn. [/LIST] [B][SIZE=3]Grappled[/SIZE][/B] [LIST] [*]You grant combat advantage. [*]You can't flank an enemy. [*]You can't take opportunity actions or immediate actions against creatures that don't have the Grapped condition. [*]You're slowed, but can't move unless you move those in your square that are grappled as well. (see below) [*]You take a -2 penalty to skill checks. [/LIST] [B] Until the end of your turn? How am I supposed to hold on?[/B] You can hold on by spending a minor action. [LIST] [*][B]Minor Action[/B]: You sustain the grapple until the end of your next turn. [/LIST] [B]What can I do in a grapple?[/B] In general, you can do anything you could normally do outside of a grapple; however, if you make an attack that doesn't target someone in the grapple, you provoke opportunity attacks from those in the grapple. [LIST] [*][B]Standard Action[/B]: Make a Strength attack vs. the target's Fortitude. If it hits, you and the target are knocked prone. If you don't want to be prone, just the target, you can end the grapple as a free action (see below). [*][B]Move Action[/B]: Make a Strength attack vs. the target's Fortitude. If it hits, you can move the target up to your speed (don't forget that you're Slowed!). [*][B]Immediate Interrupt[/B]: If the target provokes an opportunity attack from you, and you hit, you can instead deal no damage with the attack to cancel the triggering action. [*][B]Immediate Interrupt[/B]: If the target provokes an opportunity attack from you, you can instead attempt to escape as an immediate action. [/LIST] [B]How do I escape?[/B] [LIST] [*][B]Move Action[/B]: Make an Athletics check vs. the target's Fortitude, or an Acrobatics check vs. the target's Reflex (don't forget the -2 to skill checks!). If you succeed, you escape, and can shift to the nearest empty square adjacent to the target. If there are none, you fall prone in your square. [/LIST] Also, if forced movement moves either of you out of the other's square, the Grappled condition ends for both of you. [B]What if I started the grapple, but want to end it? [/B] [LIST] [*][B] Free Action[/B]: You release the target from the grapple, and the target can shift to the nearest empty square adjacent to you. If there are none, the target falls prone in its square. Both you and the target no longer have the Grappling condition. [/LIST] However, if you're released from a grapple but want to maintain it, you can attempt so as an immediate interrupt. [LIST] [*][B]Immediate Interrupt[/B]: If the target releases you from a grapple as a free action, you can attempt to maintain it. Make a Strength attack vs. the target's Reflex. On a hit, both you and the target maintain the grapple until the end of your next turn. [/LIST] [/QUOTE]
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