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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Elemmakil" data-source="post: 3854841" data-attributes="member: 55502">I disagree here.  The guard starts out carrying her while she is helpless: the rules are OK with this, AFAIK.  When she wakes up, the rules are suddenly no longer OK with the "being carried" state; there are no rules about what happens next.  I would have rules that they are grappling but that she is not pinned, however I think that his ruling is reasonable.I concur with (almost) the rest of your post.  See below my little rant.Three-way grappling rules are very poorly written.  Numerous examples abound:<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">"Several combatants can be in a single grapple. Up to four combatants can grapple a single opponent in a given round. Creatures that are one or more size categories smaller than you count for half, creatures that are one size category larger than you count double, and creatures two or more size categories larger count quadruple." OK, that's nice.  This supposes that there are exactly two sides, and that one side only contains one person.  So, we can have a fight with two giants and a human, but only if the giants are on opposite sides.  Does this make sense to anyone else?  The term "side" can get really fuzzy anyway.  This is more inelegant than it is a real problem.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">"When you are grappling with multiple opponents, you choose one opponent to make an opposed check against."  So, let's say that a human is grappling the giant.  The human is not a good grappler, so the human will not succeed on any check.  However, now the human is grappling a giant and a goblin.  Now all checks - even checks directly damaging or effecting the giant - become trivially easy.  The sole exception is that the human cannot escape easily.  Likewise, if the human is a spellcaster, it suddenly becomes very easy to pull out spell components, fighters can draw a light (and hence more suitable) weapon with ease, and so on.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Moving really fast: say that eight humans in heavy armor are grappling a giant, and each of them takes the move the grapple action.  Then the entire grapple moves at four times the speed of one human.  The issue?  They can each only move at three times their speed (if running).  Hence, grappling can actually be an effective way of moving around the battlefield faster than normally permitted.</li> </ul>Now, a little known rule of grappling: "[If you're pinning you] may voluntarily release a pinned character as a free action; if you do so, you are no longer considered to be grappling that character (and vice versa)."This doesn't work well in a group.  You know have two characters that are no longer grappling each other.  So what happens in a group?  I would rule that the pinned character is ejected from the grapple, or that you can't take this action while grappling in a group.I realize that this is overly technical.  My point is that the grappling rules do not, as written, make any sense with multiple grapplers.</blockquote>

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