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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Trevelyan" data-source="post: 4824743" data-attributes="member: 54488">If all Grasp did was a single round of auto damage and Daze then it would be a pretty sub-par Wizard 5 daily given the other options available. But I agree that the utility of all powers is dependant on a number of factors, that's essentially my point. It's also the same point I made about Visions in the thread about that power. Generally speaking, I would expect most half way competant wizard players to pick spells which work well with their group and to seek to employ them in the most advantageous situations, but that's not really evidence of an operpowered spell, just good tactics. When evaluating Grasp (or any other power) it's important to consider not only how effective it was when it was used, but also that several other fights might occur in any given day where the wizard chose not to use a given spell because the circumstances weren't best suited for it. It's a trade off, though. Assuming a monster is caught in the zone the DM has a choice. He can either stick it out, suffering the necrotic damage and just trading blows with an adjacent PC, or he can risk an OA to get out of dodge, in which case he effectively looses a turn and may take some additional damage. That's part of the situational aspect. Many parties find it perfectly easy to prevent attacks on ranged PCs without a protective zone. And, of course, the DM can weigh up the benefits and still charge monsters in to attack ranged guys, or make ranged attacks against them (if the monsters have decent artillary - the situational aspect again). I'm using the character builder version, but only because we print out teh power cards and use those at the table. I wasn't previously aware of the difference. It's interesting, though, that people are finding an increasing number of wizard daily powers too potent. Maybe the community as a whole should revise their expectations of wizard powers rather than the powers themselves? Prior to AP, a lot of people complained that wizards were insufficiently controllery, and now the complaint seems to be that they are too effective as controllers! Helpful, no and usually. As a party, our standard tactic when "stinky" is in play (my group almost treats the zone as another party member, with the fighter saying things like "can you send Stinky to lend me a hand?") is to form a rough shield wall and heard the monsters towards teh melee line of fighter, swordmage and melee cleric, who then block them and pin them in place while Stinky covers the monsters and provides extra damage. We're not a ranged heavy party so line of sight is rarely a concern and it usually benefits us to block line of sight for the enemies. I usually use Grasping Shadows on melee types. Ranged types tend to start too far out and move away if the spell is cast early, and one the melee crew are in range of the enemy artillary I'd rather save the spell for a more advantageous occasion. Stinky is either amazing in close confines (if the party has room to bunch up in the corner with the cloud covering everything else) or else a complete liability, in which case I wouldn't cast it. We've got the three guys I mentioned earlier (fighter, swordmage and mixed-but-predominantly-melee cleric) plus my wizard. The fighter typically pins one or two guys down and the swordmage likes to mark one target near the fighter then shadow jaunt (shadar-kai) over to a different group of enemies and break out swordburst until they scatter, making easy pickings for the cleric or my wizard. Once we've thinned the crowd the swordmage heads back to help the fighter. Generally speaking, Grasp adds nothing significant to our tactics, hence the other pwoers are more useful. Again, it's that situational element. As for the type of encounters, we're playing through the Scales of War campaign, which seems pretty mixed so far.</blockquote>

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