Great Lakes Train Wreck

Pauper

That guy, who does that thing.
Went to Milwaukee this past weekend to visit my fiancee, and we decided to take in an AL game at a local game store. I recount this story not to blame anyone in particular -- I probably deserve as much blame as anyone -- but to point out how things can snowball out of control and lead to a poor play experience.

It started out oddly enough. My fiancee and I arrived at the store where the regular group had started early in an attempt to complete an 8-hour module in one sitting. The only other available players were a pair of 12-year old boys and one slightly older, maybe 14-year old boy. From experience, I know that gaming with younger kids can be challenging, so I'd hoped to play my paladin, but the module chosen was one my paladin had already played (The Drowned Tower), so I instead pulled out my warlock with the Actor feat, thinking that at least I'd be able to serve as the party 'face'.

The first part of the adventure went surprisingly well. We got through the initial combat, then quickly finished the initial investigation part of the adventure. The kids got a chance to try to bluff their way into the seedy bar without paying the seven copper cover charge, but we got the info we needed and took a short break before heading out to the main meat of the adventure.

Things started to go south after we reached the tower. One of the kids, playing a dragonborn barbarian, decided to head in a different direction from the other two kids, so me and my fiancee followed him, even as he started descending farther into the tower before the other characters had finished getting through the first level. Then, one character triggered an encounter, and before we knew what was happening, the rogue was down and making death saves. The DM allowed me and my fiancee's characters to hear the rogue's cry as he was knocked down, and my fiancee's dragonborn headed back up the stairs to help.

It was at that point that the dragonborn barbarian remembered that he'd been inflicted with Megalomania (from the chart in DDAL 3-6, No Laughing Matter), and decided that the directive, "Anyone who doesn't do exactly what I say doesn't deserve to live," meant that my warlock had to die for telling the barbarian to go back to help the rogue. He attacked, and my warlock responded by casting Crown of Madness on the barbarian; it stuck, and the warlock ordered the barbarian to come along and help. The barbarian quickly shrugged off the spell, but not until my warlock had re-joined the rest of the party -- the wizard had summoned a gargoyle to delay the monsters that had dropped the rogue, but hadn't been able to get to the rogue to aid him. It certainly looked as though we were going to have a TPK right there on the first level.

Eventually, the barbarian lost interest in hunting the party, and the wizard's spells ended up handling the encounter, so we settled in for a short rest to try to recover from the misadventure. The barbarian decided to head down the stairs he'd gone down, triggering the next encounter, and getting quickly dropped. The rest of the party eventually followed and cleaned up the encounter, but we left the barbarian unconscious, uncertain whether he'd try to kill us if we revived him. Pushing as quickly as we could, we managed to finish the four-hour adventure in just under six hours, just as the store was closing, so we didn't have time to resolve some of the outstanding plot issues hanging over our heads (such as pooling to buy the barbarian a Greater Restoration to cure his madness).

As we were leaving, I thanked the DM for the game, but over the next day, the more I thought about it, the more I was irritated about how the game had gone. In the end, everybody got XP, and I even got the magic item, but I have to think my fiancee and I would have had more fun sitting at home and playing Dungeon Siege on her X-Box.

As noted, there's a lot of blame to go around:

- The AL takes some blame for including an option in an adventure which allows a character to 'act' Chaotic Evil even though such an alignment is prohibited from the game. It's one thing to say that 'it's what my character would do' doesn't enable disruptive play, but when the personality trait is given in an AL adventure, rather than being chosen by the player, the AL has to take some blame for enabling the abusive behavior.

- The barbarian player takes some blame for intepreting, "this character who offended me doesn't deserve to live" as "I will kill that character". One could argue that a more mature player would be able to make that determination, but again, the player was 12, and a very small number of 12-year olds likely have the maturity needed to handle that kind of character option. This one clearly didn't.

- The DM takes some blame for not correcting the player, and not taking control of the session when it became obvious that the game was close to going completely off the rails. I will give the DM credit, though, once the game got back on the rails, she kept everything running smoothly until the end, finishing the mod before the store closed.

- I take some blame for both planting the seed in the barbarian player's mind that splitting the party was an OK thing (since we did it successfully in the exploration part of the adventure), and then arguably escalating the PvP by casting a spell on the barbarian after he attacked me (though, in my defense, the spell was meant to get the barbarian back on track, as well as to prevent him from attacking me, as the spell applies the Charmed condition). If I had the chance to go back in time, I'm not sure what I'd change rather than simply letting the barbarian head downstairs to be punked by the cultists waiting there.

--
Pauper
 

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Evilhalfling

Adventurer
My first rule of gaming.
If there are two ways to play your character, and in one of them you are a dick who splits (fights) the party. DON'T PICK THAT ONE.
second rule of gaming:
There are always at least 2 ways to play your character.

I did actually explain this rule to one of the teenager at my Adventure League game last week. He was railroaded back to the group - cause Ravenlauft has those handy mists, but he handled the character better until he was killed. (He was level 1 and took a bad hit, not out of his own mistakes)
 

Anthraxus

Explorer
As noted, there's a lot of blame to go around:

--
Pauper

I think the blame was pretty equal all the way around. :)

I do have problems with the madness mechanic from Season 3 mods(this is not Call of Cthulhu), for one. The rule of "Don't be a dick" got a mild end-around from everyone, and running a game with kids does make it harder to keep control. I just had a Death House gameday this weekend, and the two 13-year old boys at the table got a little wild at times(in character and out), but having 4 veteran players at the table really helped me keep a modicum of control.
 

Eltab

Lord of the Hidden Layer
The way I would have applied that Megalomania description, in the situation you describe, would be like "If you want to leave me and run away - using the excuse of that Rogue's scream - fine. You are better off WITH me. See if I ever help you out of a jam that you get into WITHOUT me." (Because obviously my instructions are better than anything you would think of yourself, and the rest of the world needs to learn that, the easy way or the hard way.)

But then, I'm more than 4 x 12-years-old. "Does not deserve to live" is pretty close to "deserves to die" when you haven't finished learning the English language yet.

From your description, the only thing I can think of to do better would have been to say "Don't wander off alone, let's finish up here first" when the Barb headed towards the stairs.
 

This, most assuredly. Especially in play with strangers, the players have a vested interest in keeping the group together and making things less difficult for the DM.

One thing I’ve noticed is that some kids (and certain adults, I hate to say) have a hard time knowing when to step out of the spotlight and let someone else have a turn. That barbarian, by causing all that trouble, immediately makes the adventure all about them.

I’ve actually been enjoying the Rage of Demons madness mechanic, but so far, no one has used it as an excuse to disrupt play.

My first rule of gaming.
If there are two ways to play your character, and in one of them you are a dick who splits (fights) the party. DON'T PICK THAT ONE.
second rule of gaming:
There are always at least 2 ways to play your character.
 

Tyranthraxus

Explorer
Ralif: Some people never lose that 'me first, me first!' gaming viewpoint, in fact Ive got one about 45ish in my game every Wed. Most of the time its manageable.

Ive said it before in many friends but the best games for me are those with complete strangers. I cant anticipate what they are going to do, I dont know their gaming history or interests and Ive got to react pretty much to each situation.

Im the exception to the norm though. Most people more enjoy the gaming group they have established from high school friends or people they have known for years.

Megalomania can be interpreted in many different ways and the way it was interpreted here was just another version.
 


Pauper

That guy, who does that thing.
The madness doesn't override the General AL rules against PvP

There are no general AL rules against PvP. (If you think there are, please cite them.) The rule is against 'undermining' other characters, and I totally understood why that rule exists when I was hiding from a raging barbarian while two black puddings were threatening to devour the rest of the party.

The point is that this wasn't a situation in which the DM could say, 'no, you're not a megalomaniac, that's not a valid option in this campaign'. The option was explicitly provided in an AL adventure, so the DM was not comfortable overriding it, as that would suggest that the DM could also override things like 'Trapped in the Mists' or other AL content that restricts or informs player options.

--
Pauper
 

Mirtek

Hero
There are no general AL rules against PvP. (If you think there are, please cite them.) The rule is against 'undermining' other characters, and I totally understood why that rule exists when I was hiding from a raging barbarian while two black puddings were threatening to devour the rest of the party.
what else would you call attacking a fellow PC?
The point is that this wasn't a situation in which the DM could say, 'no, you're not a megalomaniac, that's not a valid option in this campaign'.
but he could have said 'nope you're not attacking a fellw PC'
the option was explicitly provided in an AL adventure,
only the option to catch this madness, not tge option to use it to attack fellow pcs
so the DM was not comfortable overriding it,
no need to override it, just telling him he can't undermine fellow PCs because if it. The pc could rage and curse and threaten alll he wants in his madness, he simply can't attack another PC due to it in AL
 

Pauper

That guy, who does that thing.
what else would you call attacking a fellow PC?

Apparently I wasn't clear enough -- the part of the ruling I understood was the "play nice when things get deadly" part.

Again, this was not a situation where the player simply decided to have his character arbitrarily attack another character for no reason, or because he chose an anti-social character option. This was an anti-social character option explicitly given to his character by an AL module, and the possibility of intra-party conflict is precisely what makes the option supposedly a drawback. In retrospect, this was not a great choice, and probably why the actual madness tables in the DMG provide no similar madness option.

Lastly, you still haven't provided a citation for the 'you can't attack another PC in AL' rule you seem to believe exists. Please share with the class.

--
Pauper
 


felwred

First Post
There are no general AL rules against PvP. (If you think there are, please cite them.) The rule is against 'undermining' other characters, and I totally understood why that rule exists when I was hiding from a raging barbarian while two black puddings were threatening to devour the rest of the party.

The point is that this wasn't a situation in which the DM could say, 'no, you're not a megalomaniac, that's not a valid option in this campaign'. The option was explicitly provided in an AL adventure, so the DM was not comfortable overriding it, as that would suggest that the DM could also override things like 'Trapped in the Mists' or other AL content that restricts or informs player options.

--
Pauper

Actually there are rules against PvP in AL. AL Player's Guide
p4
"No Undermining of Other Characters During
Adventures. Adventurers are brought together by
common cause, and during an adventure, they’re
expected to work together to overcome challenges.
Though certain factions might find others distasteful,
individuals will put that aside and become a team when
put in dangerous situations. In short, play nice with
each other when things get deadly."

also code of conduct p9
"Participants must not conduct themselves in a manner
that is disruptive to the enjoyment or safety of others
at the event."

Madnesses don't prescribe you have to kill fellow PC's (certainly none in season 3 did). Saying you have to attack PC's is the same as using the lame excuse "That's how my character would have done it - I'm just playing my character." As a player, it is your choice how your character would handle things - remember rule 1 - "Don't be a dick." Donald Trump is Megalamonical but he doesn't seem to kill protestors himself :)
 

Pauper

That guy, who does that thing.
The madness tables in the DMG explicitly list a 'attack the nearest creature' option. So there's that.

That is a short-term madness effect that lasts for 1d10 minutes and then disappears. It's not comparable to an indefinite effect -- the closest indefinite effect is "I've discovered that I really like killing people," which one could argue is pretty much the definition of an adventurer, and isn't focused on your allies.

--
Pauper
 

Pauper

That guy, who does that thing.
Actually there are rules against PvP in AL. AL Player's Guide
p4
"No Undermining of Other Characters During
Adventures. Adventurers are brought together by
common cause, and during an adventure, they’re
expected to work together to overcome challenges.
Though certain factions might find others distasteful,
individuals will put that aside and become a team when
put in dangerous situations. In short, play nice with
each other when things get deadly."

also code of conduct p9
"Participants must not conduct themselves in a manner
that is disruptive to the enjoyment or safety of others
at the event."

Neither of these rules prohibit characters from attacking other PCs; the first rule simply says that a character cannot 'undermine' another character, without really defining what that is (but as noted, once I was hiding from a berserk barbarian, I found out -- by then it was too late). The second rule prescribes player behavior, not character behavior (review the examples of disruptive behavior listed in the ALPG to confirm this; none of the examples include 'engage in PvP'). Even so, if the AL is offering an option that encourages players to violate the Code of Conduct, that's an issue for the AL to deal with.

It's OK, though, I'm not blaming the AL for the entire event, just for contributing to it. As noted, there's plenty of blame to go around. I'm just hoping by sharing this experience, it's less likely to happen at other tables.

--
Pauper
 

Steve_MND

First Post
Actually there are rules against PvP in AL. AL Player's Guide

Nothing of what you quoted there says that there is no PvP in the AL. Now, mind you, in many cases that are likely to come up, PCs attacking another PC would indeed be considered "undermining" the other's character and/or providing an unpleasant play experience for those involved, so, functionally, that may equate to much the same thing. But it's not exactly the same. If PvP were literally forbidden, you could not, for example, strike another character who had fallen under Crown of Madness or similar effects, even to subdue. If PvP were literally forbidden, a DM could argue that you can't tackle another PC who you knew was about to unwittingly set off the Button of Doom in a mod, or perhaps not be able to disarm or interfere with another PC who was about to kill an innocent NPC.

PvP itself isn't forbidden, altho most situations regarding how it would likely come about are -- i.e., "don't be a dick."

Semantics? Perhaps. But if there is one thing that OP players have developed a (perhaps unhealthy) love of over the decades, it's stickling a bunch of rules.
 

felwred

First Post
Sorry but in what way is attacking a PC not undermining that PC? It seems to be an absolute. If I kill your PC, I'm certainly undermining his ability to participate. Every AL DM I've played with and every session I've DM'd have the same point of view.

If I see a character act against another character (unless dominated, etc.), as a DM that results in me interrupting the actions - explaining AL rules about it and trying to reconcile the situation amicably. Second attempt, they are out of the game - I've tossed people and never had an AL admin or RC overturn what I've done (I've actually been commended for having done so).

It does broach an interesting question, though, of how close to that line can you get? That would be a good thread to start (I will post it as it's own thread).

I don't think the problem in this situation was AL - it was the players, the DM, and the shop (in my view).

Fred
 

Pauper

That guy, who does that thing.
I don't think the problem in this situation was AL - it was the players, the DM, and the shop (in my view).

You are certainly welcome to your view. In my view, though, had the PC in question not contracted a specific form of madness that only appears in an AL adventure, the train wreck would have been totally averted. In that sense, the AL does assume some degree of responsibility.

I'm going to refrain from commenting about PvP in the thread you created, so as not to turn that thread into a copy of this one. (I couldn't help but point out some things about the loot rules, though.)

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Pauper
 

No PVP at my table. It is disruptive and breaks the rules of AL. I find intentionally killing or inflicting significant (or any) damage on another PC to be particularly undermining and never allow it. Hell, I warned a player last week who wanted to cast Suggestion on another PC to go along with a plan they didn't want to agree to as being undermining that player's control of their character. Feel free to persuade them normally if you can but do not physically or magically coerce them. As a DM, I can do that to a PC, that's the game. Other PCs can't, because it's AL and is a dick move anyway (though I would allow it in a non-AL game if the players were comfortable with that sort of thing).
 

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