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<blockquote data-quote="firesnakearies" data-source="post: 4398460" data-attributes="member: 71334">I don't have a problem with &quot;optimizing&quot; (as we call it these days) per se.&nbsp; I really don't.&nbsp; I, myself, am an oldschool powergamer and rules lawyer who has always loved to really dig into the mechanics and figure out how to construct highly combat-effective characters.&nbsp;However, I'm a roleplayer before that.&nbsp; My friends and I back in the day had a slogan about character creation, &quot;Build 'em like a powergamer, but play 'em like a roleplayer.&quot;&nbsp; The premise which I've always embodied in my gaming career is that you can create a fairly min/maxed character and still imbue that character with plenty of background, personality, and other RP goodness.&nbsp;What I do have a problem with is the level, amount, and tone of the communication about the subject by the hardcore &quot;optimizer&quot; crowd.&nbsp; Partially, I blame the massive growth and popularization of the Internet, online communities, and vast amounts of forum discourse on every possible subject for this.&nbsp; But mostly, I blame the rise of MMORPGs, especially the elements of intense competitive PvP and extremely challenging raid content.&nbsp; I think that these factors engendered a change in the entire set of expectations, presuppositions, and ways of communicating about RP gaming.&nbsp;It comes down to what I'm going to call &quot;powergaming proselytization&quot;.&nbsp; (New term coined, right here and now!)&nbsp; It's no longer enough for the min/maxers to quietly go about making their uber character, not announcing the fact, not showing off their optimized build, and not presuming for a moment to tell anyone else how to make their own character.&nbsp; Now, the powergamers feel compelled to widely trumpet their ideas and formulae for the &quot;ultimate&quot; character, for maximal &quot;efficiency&quot; and so forth.&nbsp; Worse, they very often decide that it's their duty to &quot;inform&quot; any other gamer who is not so &quot;optimal&quot;, to tell them how to build their character, to criticize and deride the &quot;subpar&quot; choices that their fellows have made, and to essentially browbeat everyone else into playing in whatever they feel is the &quot;right&quot; way.&nbsp;They're proselytizers, beating the gospel of powergaming truth into the thick skulls of the ignorant heathens who still just want to make a fun, if mediocre, character that they'll enjoy playing.&nbsp; They want to convert everyone else who plays with them, or who they discuss the game with, into fellow min/maxers, and they can be downright pushy, even rude.&nbsp; The problem is that newer gamers, or more casual ones, or more roleplay-focused ones, get bombarded with all of this stentorian advice (and ridicule if that advice isn't heeded), so that either sets their own perceptions of how they &quot;should&quot; be playing, or it makes them uncomfortable playing alongside someone who can't help but suggest (repeatedly) that they're a bad player, or a useless character, or what have you.&nbsp;This is dragging down the hobby as a whole, causing a lot of arguments, a lot of conflict, a lot of misinformation, and a lot of corruption of newer players' baseline views of the game and what it's ultimately about.&nbsp; I can tell you that the next time I'm running a game for a new group and Mr. Optimizer looks over Ms. Newgirl's character sheet and starts rattling off all of the things which are &quot;wrong&quot; and &quot;useless&quot; and telling her how she SHOULD build her character, and suppressing her natural creative inclinations under the fallacious pretense that she &quot;needs&quot; to play a certain way, and make her character as &quot;efficient&quot; as possible . . . the next time I see that happening, I'll be putting the kibosh on that right away.&nbsp;I don't want people to abandon &quot;optimizing&quot; if that's how they like to play.&nbsp; But I do want them to stop shoving it down everyone else's throat.&nbsp; I do want them to quiet down about their ultimate gems of min/maxing wisdom a little bit, and stop shouting down every other player with their intimidating claims about what is absolutely &quot;right&quot;, &quot;best&quot;, &quot;necessary&quot; or &quot;viable&quot; - in their personal opinion.&nbsp;I just want to see less powergaming proselytization going on, and more friendly, respectful, open-minded gameplay, cooperation, and discussion.&nbsp;That's all.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="firesnakearies, post: 4398460, member: 71334"] I don't have a problem with "optimizing" (as we call it these days) per se. I really don't. I, myself, am an oldschool powergamer and rules lawyer who has always loved to really dig into the mechanics and figure out how to construct highly combat-effective characters. However, I'm a roleplayer before that. My friends and I back in the day had a slogan about character creation, "Build 'em like a powergamer, but play 'em like a roleplayer." The premise which I've always embodied in my gaming career is that you can create a fairly min/maxed character and still imbue that character with plenty of background, personality, and other RP goodness. What I do have a problem with is the level, amount, and tone of the [I]communication[/I] about the subject by the hardcore "optimizer" crowd. Partially, I blame the massive growth and popularization of the Internet, online communities, and vast amounts of forum discourse on every possible subject for this. But mostly, I blame the rise of MMORPGs, especially the elements of intense competitive PvP and extremely challenging raid content. I think that these factors engendered a change in the entire set of expectations, presuppositions, and ways of communicating about RP gaming. It comes down to what I'm going to call "powergaming proselytization". (New term coined, right here and now!) It's no longer enough for the min/maxers to quietly go about making their uber character, not announcing the fact, not showing off their optimized build, and not presuming for a moment to tell anyone else how to make their own character. Now, the powergamers feel compelled to widely trumpet their ideas and formulae for the "ultimate" character, for maximal "efficiency" and so forth. Worse, they very often decide that it's their duty to "inform" any other gamer who is not so "optimal", to tell them how to build their character, to criticize and deride the "subpar" choices that their fellows have made, and to essentially browbeat everyone else into playing in whatever they feel is the "right" way. They're proselytizers, beating the gospel of powergaming truth into the thick skulls of the ignorant heathens who still just want to make a fun, if mediocre, character that they'll enjoy playing. They want to [I]convert[/I] everyone else who plays with them, or who they discuss the game with, into fellow min/maxers, and they can be downright pushy, even rude. The problem is that newer gamers, or more casual ones, or more roleplay-focused ones, get bombarded with all of this stentorian advice (and ridicule if that advice isn't heeded), so that either sets their own perceptions of how they "should" be playing, or it makes them uncomfortable playing alongside someone who can't help but suggest (repeatedly) that they're a bad player, or a useless character, or what have you. This is dragging down the hobby as a whole, causing a lot of arguments, a lot of conflict, a lot of [I]misinformation[/I], and a lot of corruption of newer players' baseline views of the game and what it's ultimately about. I can tell you that the next time I'm running a game for a new group and Mr. Optimizer looks over Ms. Newgirl's character sheet and starts rattling off all of the things which are "wrong" and "useless" and telling her how she SHOULD build her character, and suppressing her natural creative inclinations under the fallacious pretense that she "needs" to play a certain way, and make her character as "efficient" as possible . . . the next time I see that happening, I'll be putting the kibosh on that [I]right[/I] away. I don't want people to abandon "optimizing" if that's how they like to play. But I do want them to stop shoving it down everyone else's throat. I do want them to quiet down about their ultimate gems of min/maxing wisdom a little bit, and stop shouting down every other player with their intimidating claims about what is absolutely "right", "best", "necessary" or "viable" - in their personal opinion. I just want to see less [I]powergaming proselytization [/I]going on, and more friendly, respectful, open-minded gameplay, cooperation, and discussion. That's all. [/QUOTE]

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