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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Helldritch" data-source="post: 7200006" data-attributes="member: 6855114">I can see CapnZapp point quite clearly. He is right and yet he is wrong.His calculations are perfect. I have nothing to say about them save that I agree. Maybe I was not clear on that.Only the first assumption is wrong. A pc can't have advantage all the time.The white room does not take into account monsters reaction.The white room does not take into account the loss of resources from previous encounters.The white room does not take into account the different DM styles.The "I got a gazzillion ways to get advantage" are all cancelled by one action: "The dodge action." Of course it won't work with only one creature but you will rarely see that. Especially now, that we know that in 5e, boss battle are simply too easy.From what I have seen in over 15 different groups over the course of 5 years or so of 5ed, the "troublesome" feats come to the fore in a few situations.-DM allow the 5 mwd. Characters are always at full capacity. The feat abuse door is now wide open.-DM does not enforce the 4 to 6 encounters per day. Or the way he builds them allow too much resource economy  which will allow the 5mwd.-DM let the "monsters" stay static between the character's forays. Yep I had had a problem with these feats in the first two groups, in the first few dungeons they did. I told myself what is wrong? I found solutions and put them into play. And all the other DM I knew that had problem with the feats are now applying my solutions. The solutions were to make sure the 5mwd would no longer exists.With one group it was pretty obvious, the DM had asked me to check his gaming and find the wrong in what he was doing for he could not properly challenge the players without going over board and slay them outright with a challenge way too high for them.It was a simple assault on a ruined tower with a dungeon in the basement. Players agreed to play it two times. Once with their DM and once with me.1st attempt.Total of 5 encounters. 4 of these were easy to moderate with one short rest between encounter 3 and 4. The last one was a boss with three henchmen. Resources are all gone with the first four, so the players go out, make camp. Needless to say that I saw a lot of nova. They get back in where the boss and his henchmen are there, waiting for the players as if nothing happened. Four or five round later, no more bad guys. End of the story.2nd attempt I stepped in. Same encounters, monster's names are changed (and only the names) the map is a little different but the same principles apply.After the 2nd encounter, the players want to take a short rest. I oblige them as it should be. After the third encounter, with orogs blocking the entryway and dodging the GWM while the  hobgoblins are shooting arrows after arrows they want to rest again. The room 4 get the jump on them as they try to rest. I almost killed them. They get their rest (finally) but it transforms into a long one. They finaly come to the end boss room only to find it empty. The boss is gone with his henchmen along with any treasure that wasn't nailed down to the walls. I agree to a third time. Players start to keep resources and don't go nova all the way as usual. I even see the barbarian dodging at one point. A short rest between fight 3 and 4. And get to the endgame boss with quite a few less resources than they expected. The battle is a long one, it lasts 12 or 13 rounds with a knight intercepting the GWM and he started to play the I dodge and I parry you with the poor player almost screaming how unfair it was. Meanwhile, the boss and his two other henchmen are engaging the other players. The rogue of the players goes down but he's not killed. When they finaly won, with  the bosse's death at the hand of the rogue, the knight surendered... (he was almost dead anyways).The players much prefered the last fight. They were proud of having won with much hardship.A white room calculation would not have predict that outcome.No it was not a battle master but a barbarian. They did not have the standard array but well rolled up characters. They were level 5.But I saw the same scenari over and over again with the same results.Yes these feats, left uncheck, can be quite the destroyers of fun and versatility of play. Yes they can be quite unbalanced. But a few simple change in style and they get back to where they are supposed to be. And if you do this, you'll start to see some changes in player tactics. Builds will start to diversify and you'll have fun again because players will surprise you.As I said, these feat will be as unbalanced and disruptive as you let them to be.</blockquote>

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