Greater Scrying, False Vision, Detect Magic, and you.

[avatarolt]

Required background reading (sorry, it's friggin' long):

False Vision
Illusion (Glamer)
Level: Brd 5, Sor/Wiz 5, Trickery 5
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Area: 40-ft.-radius emanation
Duration: 1 hour/level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
Any divination (scrying) spell used to view anything within the area of this spell instead receives a false image (as the major image spell), as defined by you at the time of casting. As long as the duration lasts, you can concentrate to change the image as desired. While you aren’t concentrating, the image remains static.
Arcane Material Component: The ground dust of a piece of jade worth at least 250 gp, which is sprinkled into the air when the spell is cast.

Major Image
Illusion (Figment)
Level: Brd 3, Sor/Wiz 3
Duration: Concentration + 3 rounds
This spell functions like silent image, except that sound, smell, and thermal illusions are included in the spell effect. While concentrating, you can move the image within the range.
The image disappears when struck by an opponent unless you cause the illusion to react appropriately.

Silent Image
Illusion (Figment)
Level: Brd 1, Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, S, F
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Effect: Visual figment that cannot extend beyond four 10-ft. cubes + one 10-ft. cube/level (S)
Duration: Concentration
Saving Throw: Will disbelief (if interacted with)
Spell Resistance: No
This spell creates the visual illusion of an object, creature, or force, as visualized by you. The illusion does not create sound, smell, texture, or temperature. You can move the image within the limits of the size of the effect.
Focus: A bit of fleece.

SAVING THROW
Usually a harmful spell allows a target to make a saving throw to avoid some or all of the effect. The Saving Throw entry in a spell description defines which type of saving throw the spell allows and describes how saving throws against the spell work.

Saving Throws and Illusions (Disbelief ): Creatures encountering an illusion usually do not receive saving throws to recognize it as illusory until they study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion.
A successful saving throw against an illusion reveals it to be false, but a figment or phantasm remains as a translucent outline.
A failed saving throw indicates that a character fails to notice something is amiss. A character faced with proof that an illusion isn’t real needs no saving throw. If any viewer successfully disbelieves an illusion and communicates this fact to others, each such viewer gains a saving throw with a +4 bonus

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Geez, ok, with that out of the way: our party is chasing after a pair of BBEGs. We've identified them as a Cleric of Vehruhn (using Trickery/Travel domains) and an evil druid. We've used Greater Scry to attempt to determine their locations. After failing to teleport/trans via plants to anywhere in the area, we get the bright idea that the Cleric's trickery domain is leading into a false vision. Our Knowledge (Religion) specialist makes the check, so we start casting Detect Magic through the scrys, revealing the whole scene as illusionary.

Here's the question: what happens? Here's the three interpretations our party and DM have come up with so far:

1) False Vision lists saving throw as "none". This entitles the viewer to no chance to disbelieve.

2) False Vision lists saving throw as "none", but the range is "touch", making the target either an object or a person. The object or person is not entitled to a saving throw. However, someone viewing through a scry *is* entitled to a saving throw a la Major Image because he is not the target of the spell; though the spell is illusionary and transmits "as" a spell with a saving throw. After determining an illusionary nature, the real location is revealed.

3) Same as #2, save for the fact that false vision *only* sends the Major Image per the spell description; this results in success in determining the illusionary nature, but a failure to determine real location as disbelief does not negate the spell, but only results in the phantasmal outline being displayed (per the description of disbelief).

Any other commentary? This one's crunchy.

 

[Nail]

False Vision is an Illusion (Glammer) spell.

Glammer spells can be "disbelived", but once they are, they do not become "a translucent outline". Therefore you still see the illusion, and not what is "underneath" it; you just know it is false.

(....and really, this is all trumped by the "Saving Throw: None" line in the primary spell description. Primary source always takes precidence over references. Your Detect Magic can tell you the scene has illusion magic in it, but you can't disbelieve it and make it go away.)

Yer outta luck, kid.

 

[Nail]

BTW: How did you get so lucky as to have the cleric fail his Will save vs. your Scry?

Wow.

 

[avatarolt]

BTW: How did you get so lucky as to have the cleric fail his Will save vs. your Scry?

Wow.

1) I think I still disagree with you on the Saving Throw: None -- the target isn't the Scry's caster. We know this to be the case because the area is a "40-foot emenation" from a range of "touch". Saving Throws are for the subject/target of a spell. I think if we cast false vision to hide someone against their will, THEY wouldn't get a saving throw. I don't see as this spell targets the caster of a greater scry.

2) However, I think I can see why it wouldn't go translucent. The only (apparent) effect from disbeliving a glammer then is the knowledge that it isn't real. Therefore, the benefit of detect magic could theoretically be negated by someone who *knew* they were being False Visioned or had reason to believe so -- and would be entitled to a will save to determine the validity of the scene (but not turning the scene translucent, as it is neither figment nor phantasm).

Does that sound accurate?

3) The druid cast Greater Scrying...about 5 days' worth so far. He has one companion, so we can cast it effectively twice on the same area. My GS will beat a will save because I've spent time (and gobs of money) cranking my wisdom. That, and if you roll a d20 enough times...

 

[avatarolt]

Oh, one other question:

Where does it say that the primary source trumps referred spells? Since Polymorph/Alter Self had "as <spell> except as noted" as opposed to simply "as <spell>", it caused some confusion with mechanics in our party. Part of the question is simply to feed our knowledge about the game, so it would be nice to know what you're referring to.