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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Petrosian" data-source="post: 632552" data-attributes="member: 1149">Asusuming you have a +3 reflex save, then at DC23 1 tank in 20 will save. Against DC 21, 3  in 30 will save. Sorry but thats not a significant difference to me.Sure, you can portray it as "THREE TIMES THE CHANCE" but its still a difference of 855 fail vs 95% fail. Now, lets run the munbers...10d6 averages 35 points (95% and 17 points (5%)1d6 EMPOWERED averages 52 points (85%) and 26 points (15%)Thats 34.1 points of damage vs 48. The empower option works best.its not that big of a deal.Besides... ogres and hill giants or other tanks are not supposed to challenge reflex saves.I started throwing ogres at mny groups at level 2-3. The highest bonus to DCs was still +3. over 75% of the ogres were never able to get to the party. Entangles and grease spells forced them to make poor reflex saves and they got stopped or delayed long enough to get whammied by ranged attacks. I did not see that as a bad thing. They FEW ogres who got thru did significant damage.TANKS are typically earmarked by two things...1. tough and damaging as all get out ONCE they get on you. Hard to nail with brute force.2. Seriously vulnerable to spells.if you decide to remove the second part, or to reduce it, the former becomes critically important.********************That said... most of my experience is with regular DnD not with non-standard PC races which give spell stat bonuses or with campaigns where stat increaseing items are ubiquitous.</blockquote>

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