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Message: <blockquote data-quote="evilbob" data-source="post: 4010964" data-attributes="member: 9789">Part of the issue with this whole variant rule is that it really seems to be a no-brainer for a cleric to take it.  And if you optimize that cleric, it becomes MUCH more powerful than a normal turn, ESPECIALLY against very powerful undead - which would be the ones most useful to turn and/or damage.For example:  let's take a cleric and optimize it for turning.  We'll say the cleric is level 6, and we'll use two feats (one of which is completely optional), say his Cha is at least 16 (easy enough through stats or items), give him one item, and set his domains.  That still leaves some wiggle room for the character, but makes him incredibly good for turning.- level 6 cleric- Cha mod +3- feat:  improved turning (PHB - and easily optional)- feat:  empower turning (Complete Divine / Libris Mortis)- 5 ranks Knowledge religion- item:  Ephod of Authority (Magic Item Comp.; vest slot item; same effect as and stacks with improved turning; cost is only 800g - EASILY done)- domains:  Sun, Glory (Complete Divine / Spell Comp.)Edit:  I messed up on my original numbers; I left out the Cha mod to turn checks for the traditional cleric!  Changes are in bold, but the overall point is the same.Not hard, right?  Now we have a level 6 cleric who turns like a level 8 cleric (Ephod, improved turning), adds +7 to turn checks (3 from Cha, 2 from Know. religion, 2 from Glory), adds 1d6 to damage (Glory), and then multiplies total turn damage by 1.5 (empower turning).  Once per day, they also have a greater turning (Sun).So we'll say our level 6 cleric is choosing between Traditional Turning and Destroy Undead.Traditional:- turns are 60' radius- average turn check is d20 + 7 = 17; turns undead up to (level + 2) = 10 HD- possible to turn undead up to 12 HD (~10% chance), minimum is 7 HD- destroys turned undead with 4 HD or fewer- total HD worth of undead turned:  (3d6 + 8 [cleric level] + 3 [cha]) x 1.5 = averge 32 HD (max 43 HD)- once per day, destroy any undead that are turnedDestroy:- turns are 30' radius- turn DC for will save is 10 + 8 [cleric level] + 3 [cha] + 2 [religion] + 2 [glory] = DC 25- damage is 8d6 [cleric] + 1d6 [glory] = 9d6 x 1.5 = average 47 damage, 23 on save- once per day, ???So 4 HD undead and lower are instantly vaporized by the traditional cleric with a 100% chance (up to 8 of them on average), and since 4 HD undead have an average of maybe 4d12 + 3 (toughness?) = 29 HP, and a base will save of 4 added to whatever wisdom they have (maybe 1 or 2?), they have about a 90-95% chance to be vaporized on the spot (failed save) and 10% chance to be reduced to all but dead by the destroying cleric.  This seems fair; the traditional cleric probably has a slight advantage.Let's try again for a group of 6 HD undead (roughly CR-appropriate, maybe a little weak).  Traditional has a 100% chance of turning up to 5 of them.  Given average HP of 6d12 + 3 = 42 and will saves of 5 + wisdom (total of 6-7?), we still have about a 85-90% chance of destroying them instantly (again, using average damage) and 10-15% chance of doing half damage.  Still fair - possibly even weak on the side of destroy - except that it's not limited to an average of 5 undead; any undead within 30' are game.What if we bump it to some 8 HD undead?  Traditional has a 85% chance to turn up to 4 of them.  Given averages of 55 HP and maybe 7-8 will saves, destroyers will not destroy any of them with average rolls, but they do have a ~80-85% chance of doing 85% damage to them, or a ~20% chance of doing ~40% damage - again:  guaranteed to do SOME damage, and not limited to any number of creatures.  Probably still on the cusp of fair.10 HD undead:  traditional has a 65% chance to turn up to 3 of them.  With averages of 68 HP and maybe 8-9 will saves, destroyers will have a ~75-80% chance of doing 70% damage to them, or a ~25% chance of doing ~30% damage.  Here's where the disparity starts to show; traditional turns have a reduced chance to do anything, while destroyers still have a very good chance of doing significant damage.Take a jump to 12 HD undead.  Traditional has a 25% chance to turn 2 of them (although turning 3 is possible).  Given 81HP and maybe 10-11 for will saves, destroyers will have a 65-70% chance of doing almost 60% of their life in damage, and a ~35% chance of doing only about 30%.  At this point, traditional turns have a very reduced chance to do anything, while destroyers are still dealing good damage to ALL undead in range.  Two destroying turns have a good chance to destroy all 12 HD creatures in range, while two traditional turns are very likely to do nothing.Now let's go to 14 HD undead.  Traditional?  0% chance to do anything.  Destroyers:  given 95 HD (toughness twice) and will saves of at least 12, that's still a 60% chance to do 50% damage and a 40% chance to do 25% damage.  Given 3 turns and average rolls, a destroyer can still take out 14 HD undead - undead that are probably twice his challenge rating.  The traditional turner is left with nothing.  (Granted, the destroying cleric may not LAST 3 rounds against something twice his level, but it still shows the point.)Now what happens when we add turn resistance into the mix?  You can pretty much just move that chart down two notches for +4 turn resistance for traditional clerics:  they have no chance against a 10 HD undead with +4 turn resistance and only a 10% chance against an 8 HD undead with +4 turn resistance.  Destroyers (using rules-as-written)?  You can completely ignore turn resistance; it's so insignificant it doesn't matter.  You've still got a better than 50% chance to do half damage to a 14 HD undead with +4 turn resistance.Now granted, these are using specific numbers and averages and not any kind of live data.  Most undead encounters probably have different numbers of different HD's worth of undead, and many undead have better will saves than I've given.  But none of those factors really play into the main issue, which is:  against low level undead, both kinds of clerics are almost equally as good at destroying undead creatures, but against high level undead traditional clerics are at a severe disadvantage.So how do we fix it?</blockquote>

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