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Message: <blockquote data-quote="evilbob" data-source="post: 4011307" data-attributes="member: 9789">Gloombunny:  Good point.  Perhaps the standard against which it is being compared is broken.Glass Jaw:  I think it might be better to tone down turn resistance and leave the damage the same; you're sort of fixing two problems.I've also seen people use the 1/2 cleric level for the will save, but the main issue there is that you know for a fact you're going against a high save; 1/2 cleric level + cha vs. undead will (which is 1/2 HD + 2 + wisdom, and undead HD is almost always > cleric level) will often lead to a worse than 50% chance to do full damage.  Then again, full cleric level clearly leads to a much greater than 50% chance to do full damage in many instances...  In my example above, it would reduce the save DC by 4 to 21.  That's a 20% better chance for undead to save in all senarios, which does limit its effectiveness at low levels but also makes it closer to the normal turn ability at high levels.  Part of the issue is also that you can't really even consider the save to be 1/2 cleric + cha, because it's generally a given that any cleric will have 5 ranks in Know(religion), so it's really 1/2 cleric + 2 + cha.  That's much more "even," except that the cleric's cha will be high and the undead's wisdom will be low, but the undead will likely have many more HD than the cleric has levels.  (In the case of unintelligent undead, the cleric will likely face enemies with 2 or 3 times his level in HD; for intelligent undead, it will likely be 1 to 2 times as high.)  So the question becomes:  how good is it to only do half damage to undead more often?  Is it fair compared to turning, which more or less eliminates the undead from battle?  Or should you split the difference, accept that the cleric's level will be about 1/2 the undead's HD in most senarios, and just keep it at level instead of 1/2 level?60' vs. 30' is less of a concern, in my opinion; it's nice, but most encounters (at least, most that I have ever seen) occur in an area that is much less than 60' all around.  You don't lose much by restricting the range, and it's also a nice way to put a reasonable cap on the damage.I do think that turn resistance should be more powerful; there's really no question.  (Makes you wonder how something like that even got past playtesting?)  I think "adds to save" is pretty much a given at this point; the only thing left is how much it also subtracts from damage.  Your method seems a bit high, but even the "average" of 3.5 seems ok or a bit low.  Someone else suggested 5 points per level of turn resistance; that might be a good place to start.If we again compare the idea that turn resistance is +1 to the save and -5 to the damage to my "chart" above, then we have the destroying undead cleric having a 20% less chance to effect any undead with +4 turn resistance, and he would do 20 less damage (which is 40% of max damage and 85% of half-damage).  Against a 10 HD undead with +4 TR, we have a 55-60% chance of doing about 35% damage, and a ~45% chance of doing negligible damage.  That seems pretty close to - but still better than - the traditional cleric, who has a 0% chance to do anything effective.If we combine the turn resistance rule with the 1/2 cleric level save, we get a ~40% chance to do damage instead.  (All the numbers on the chart for destroying undead's chances go down 20%.)  This is much closer to regular turning, but then again we're also thinking that regular turning is a bit underpowered.Hmm...Edit:  Here's an example from higher levels:  12th level cleric, same setup.  Cha now 20.15d6 x 1.5 damage = avg 79 with a DC 33 save for half.  A nightwing [+17 save, 144 HP, 17 HD, CR 14] has an 80% chance to take 1/2 its HP in damage from a normal turn, vs. 60% chance to turn from the traditional cleric.  Still seems fair.DC = 1/2 cleric level means DC is only 27.  That's a 50% chance to do 1/2 damage vs. a 60% chance to turn.  Not as fair.However, if we give the nightshade +4 turn resistance, the whole picture changes.  The destroyer cleric is only reduced to having a 60% chance to do 40% damage, while the traditional cleric can't even affect it anymore.  Even the 1/2 level thing only reduces it to a 30% chance.  That's still 30% to do 40% damage, and 70% to do 15% - way better than 0% to do anything.  (And if you throw in greater turning being 2x damage on a failed save:  30% chance to do 100% damage vs. 0%.)</blockquote>

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