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Message: <blockquote data-quote="evilbob" data-source="post: 4011435" data-attributes="member: 9789">For any who might nay-say, let's not forget the un-optimized cleric.  This actually makes it much worse.- level 6- cha 14- Knowledge(religion) 5 ranks (I mean, come on)Edit:  I messed up these numbers, too - fixed now.Traditional:- turns are 60' radius- average turn check is d20 + 4 = 14; turns undead up to cleric's level + 1 = 7 HD- possible to turn undead up to 10 HD (15% chance), minimum is 3 HD- destroys turned undead with 3 HD or fewer- total HD worth of undead turned: (2d6 + 6 [cleric level] + 2 [cha]) = averge 15 HD (max 20 HD)Destroy:- turns are 30' radius- turn DC for will save is 10 + 6 [cleric level] + 2 [cha] + 2 [religion] = DC 20- damage is 6d6 [cleric] = average 21 damage, 10 on save4 HD undead:- Traditional has 100% chance to turn up to 3 of them (max 5)- Destroy has 65-70% chance of doing 70% damage; 30-35% chance of 30% damage(slight edge to traditional)6 HD:- Traditional has 70% chance to turn up to 2 of them (max 3)- Destroy has 60-65% chance of doing 50% damage; 35-40% chance of 25% damage8 HD:- Traditional has 40% chance to turn up to 1 of them (max 2)- Destroy has 55-60% chance of doing 40% damage; 40-45% chance of 20% damage(heavy disparity favoring destroy)10 HD:- Traditional has 15% chance to turn up to 1 of them (max 1)- Destroy has 50-55% chance of doing 30% damage; 45-50% chance of 15% damage(massive disparity)12 HD:- Traditional has 0% chance to turn- Destroy has 45-50% chance of doing 25% damage; 50-55% chance of 12% damage(no comparison)Again, turn resistance makes it even worse:  traditional clerics move down 2 notches (8 HD are unturnable) while destroyers lose 20% of their damage or 50% of their save damage.  Not even close.</blockquote>

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