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Message: <blockquote data-quote="evilbob" data-source="post: 4012864" data-attributes="member: 9789">Ack!   I just realized I messed up the turning check rolls for traditional clerics above; those are fixed now.And here's a chart showing 1/2 cleric level for saves.  It uses unoptimized level 6 clerics against undead with +2 wisdom modifiers.4 HD undead:- Traditional has 100% chance to turn up to 3 of them (max 5)- Destroy has 50% chance of doing 70% damage; 50% chance of 30% damage(traditional has clear advantage in almost any situation)6 HD:- Traditional has 70% chance to turn up to 2 of them (max 3)- Destroy has 45% chance of doing 50% damage; 55% chance of 25% damage(traditional still leads, but a large number of undead evens the odds)8 HD:- Traditional has 40% chance to turn up to 1 of them (max 2)- Destroy has 40% chance of doing 40% damage; 60% chance of 20% damage(close to fair, especially against multiple opponents)10 HD:- Traditional has 15% chance to turn up to 1 of them (max 1)- Destroy has 35% chance of doing 30% damage; 65% chance of 15% damage(destroy edges ahead, thanks to a chance to do at least something)12 HD:- Traditional has 0% chance to turn- Destroy has 30% chance of doing 25% damage; 70% chance of 12% damage(much better - nearly a 1/3rd chance to do decent damage vs. 100% zero)The problem is that against low level undead, you're much worse off - and this problem only gets worse the higher your cleric level.  Granted, you can at least do -something- against very high level undead, but it's a high price to pay.  Something tells me these were the numbers they were looking at when they decided to make it cleric level instead of 1/2 level... And optimized level 6 clerics:4 HD undead:- Traditional has 100% chance to turn up 8 of them (max 10)- Destroy has 75% chance of doing 100% damage; 25% chance of 80% damage(traditional still has an edge, but it's close only because destroy does so much damage it doesn't matter if they save)6 HD:- Traditional has 100% chance to turn 5 of them (max 7)- Destroy has 70% chance of doing 100% damage; 30% chance of 50% damage(again, fairly even with destroy only close because of the high damage)8 HD:- Traditional has 85% chance to turn up to 4 of them (max 5)- Destroy has 65% chance of doing 85% damage; 35% chance of 40% damage(traditional still leads pretty easily)10 HD:- Traditional has 65% chance to turn up to 3 of them (max 4)- Destroy has 60% chance of doing 70% damage; 40% chance of 30% damage(destroy edges ahead, thanks to a pretty even chance to do at least something; multiple targets helps it take the lead)12 HD:- Traditional has 25% chance to turn up to 2 of them (max 3)- Destroy has 55% chance of doing 60% damage; 45% chance of 30% damage(destroy surges -way- ahead)14 HD:- Traditional has 0% chance to turn- Destroy has 50% chance of doing 50% damage; 50% chance of 25% damage(no comparison)Optimizing your cleric helps fix the low-level problem with massive damage, but at high levels you're still way too powerful.  And the poor unoptimized cleric is out in the cold.</blockquote>

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