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Message: <blockquote data-quote="evilbob" data-source="post: 4013553" data-attributes="member: 9789">After all these rule suggestions, this is how it's coming together in my head right now.  I think that the 1/2 cleric level, while looking reaaaally bad on paper (but undead have more HD and d12s for HP!), really does come out much closer to what this ability needs to do - otherwise you have clerics doing guarenteed huge damage to undead far beyond their challenge rating.  And the bonus Cha damage still allows level 1 clerics to have a good chance to destroy 10+ CR 1/3 skeletons with one standard action, although it does add a slight complexity that doesn't make a lot of sense at first glace.  Overall, this "evens out" the cleric's turning power, so that it's not a guarenteed win at low levels and a guarenteed loss at high levels, but instead just useful at all levels.  It becomes more like the druid's animal companion:  it's there at low levels to help you out, but its usefulness wanes at high levels because it's no longer necessary when you have access to upper-level spells.  It also changes turn resistance so that it's not an immunity to turning anymore, but it is more like an ability to add HD to undead to help them survive turns.  Although I did bump it up just a tad, partially because it probably needs to be more powerful and partially because of the tiny Cha boost.Also, the line about greater turning destroying undead is specifically there for vampires and any other undead that may not normally be destroyed at zero HP.  I decided to dump the "failed save" requirement, just because that starts to get sort of weird when you only have to roll damage if something fails its save, and then only to take half.  And the undead feats from above are still useful if you want to give your group a challenge that doesn't get melted away instantly by a powerful cleric - but the HD requirement will help.  Those are really pretty optional.  Lastly, the empower thing seriously nerfs the living crap out of the synergy between greater turns and empower.  It also makes it possible that an empowered turn could do more damage than a greater turn (if you happened to roll really well), although I think this is probably fair since the maximized turn is non-variable damage.  Basically, empower turning becomes something you use if you don't have the ability to use greater turns all the time.  This rule is probably the least thought-through, though.Destroy Undead (Su)Destroying undead is a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity.  It deals 1d6 points of damage per cleric level + the cleric's Cha bonus (if any) to all undead within 30 feet of the cleric.  For example, a 6th level cleric with 16 Cha would do 6d6 + 3 damage.  The affected undead get a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 cleric level + Cha modifier) for half damage.  Undead with 1/2 or fewer hit dice than the turning cleric has levels do not get a saving throw against this effect.Undead with turn resistance add 1 to their save against the effect and subtract 4 points of damage for each level of turn resistance they possess.  For example, a vampire with +4 turn resistance adds 4 to his save and takes 16 fewer points of damage each time he takes turning damage.When using this ability against incorporeal creatures, the cleric does not have to roll a 50% miss chance; turning hits them automatically.The greater turning power of the sun domain deals maximized damage.  Any undead taken to zero HP by a greater turn are utterly destroyed.Destroy undead still counts as turn undead for the purposes of prerequisites, use in feats, etc.  Any ability that grants a bonus to turning checks instead grants a bonus to the save DC.  Bonuses to turning damage apply to the damage dealt.Undead Feats added as above, with additional prereqs of 6 HD and 12 HD, respectively.Change to Empower Turning:  Empower turning multiplies all variable, numeric effects of your turning damage by 1.5.  This ability does not apply to turn damage that is already maximized, such as with a greater turn.How this changes turn undead:Clerics trade significant potential to remove low-level undead from the battlefield in favor of guarenteed damage against a much wider range of undead creatures.  A 1st level cleric may not be able to get rid of quite as many skeletons with one standard action anymore, but at least she will be able to do solid damage against all foes within range.  And throughout her career she will be able to affect undead that were previously unable to be affected.  Turn resistance, similarly, is not the guarenteed immunity from turning it once was, but rather simply gives the undead creature an significant edge against the cleric.And here's some entirely new territory...Suggested change for rebuke undead:Rebuking undead uses the same mechanic as destroy undead, but the rebuking cleric may choose to heal undead for 1d6 points per cleric level + Cha bonus up to their max HP (in which case no save is necessary and turn resistance does not apply) OR have all undead that fail their saves cower for one minute (an undead cleric may choose not to be effected by its own rebuke).  Undead that have 1/2 or fewer hit dice than the rebuking cleric are instead commanded on a failed save.This mechanic replaces "bolstering" with "healing" and gives massive power to undead clerics.  However, it is a save-or-nothing effect otherwise with pretty average odds.</blockquote>

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