Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
White Dwarf Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Nest
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
EN Publishing
Twitter
BlueSky
Facebook
Instagram
EN World
BlueSky
YouTube
Facebook
Twitter
Twitch
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Upgrade your account to a Community Supporter account and remove most of the site ads.
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*TTRPGs General
Green Ronin not signing GSL (Forked Thread: Doing the GSL. Who?)
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Korgoth" data-source="post: 4384867" data-attributes="member: 49613"><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">Mr. Ryan, <span style="font-size: 10px">your post appears to be full of revisionist history.</span></span><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">One of the distinctions at the heart of Open Gaming was between competitive products and competitive systems. Open Gaming was meant to reduce the market footprint of the latter, but was all for encouraging the former. Yes... you read that right: Open Gaming was meant to encourage competition. Why, you</span><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-size: 10px"> as</span></span><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">k? Strangely, even though it is no longer the Party Line, this information is available on WOTC's own website! Here's an excerpt:</span></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-size: 10px">Open gaming, contrary to what you are saying, Mr. Ryan, was meant to encourage competition. Open gaming theorized that the more people who were actively into hobby gaming, the more revenue WOTC would harvest. Because D&D is the most popular role playing game, it benefits from the success even of competing products, because gamers as a whole tend to buy D&D stuff. A few will not, but overall D&D revenues are directly proportional to overall role playing revenues.</span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></p><p>[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]<span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">This competition also ultimately grows the D&D brand. Why? Because as the amounts of supporting products become increasingly vast, the market becomes more resistant to alternate game systems. They have enough to choose from already!</span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 10px"></span>[/FONT]</p><p></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span> <span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-size: 10px">Then there's another part of the competition equation:</span></span></p><p></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-size: 10px">See, rather than WOTC feeling annoyed when small-timers showed them up in terms of quality, WOTC was supposed to be overjoyed that someone else came up with an innovation that they can now incorporate <em>for free</em>!</span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-size: 10px">Dancey goes on to mention that there is even a simpler version of the game, a "rules-light" version as Tweet put it, that can be constructed. He says the game can be extended to other genres, and it could even be made diceless. WOTC might experiment with some of these things, "</span></span><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-size: 10px">or other people may choose to invest the time and energy to do so".</span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-size: 10px">I think it's inappropriate to blame the so-called "glut" for the collapse of hobby stores, expecially with gasoline over 4 dollars a gallon. Game stores have collapsed out of poor business sense maybe (but in my opinion anybody who orders 500 copies of "OGL Chimney Sweeps" is going to go out of business eventually anyway)... but it's as much the economy as anything else. When people tighten the belt, it obviously gets tightened around luxuries.</span></span></p><p></p><p></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-size: 10px">Nevertheless, any "glut" as I assume you well know is a short-term problem. Sure... 1,000 startups come up with 1,000 different products. Most of them tank and the good ones rise to the top. That's called capitalism. In the long run, it's supposed to produce a body of superior product through an evolutionary process.</span></span></p><p></p><p></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-size: 10px">And if you'll look closely at the above quote, WOTC was supposed to take advantage of that evolution as well to incorporate innovations in their own products.</span></span></p><p></p><p></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-size: 10px">Myself, I think that if Open Gaming failed at all it was because too many changes were made to the core of the D&D game. D&D tried to become too much like Gurps and ended being overcomplicated and cumbersome for some people. A lot of people like lighter games and a lot of people liked the assumptions native to the older editions of D&D that were cast aside. So in a sense Open Gaming started off on the wrong foot because it stated up front that D&D was so successful because it was so popular and familiar, but right out of the gate they made changes that ended up (a few years down the road, for many of us) alienating a lot of the core audience.</span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Korgoth, post: 4384867, member: 49613"] [FONT=Verdana] Mr. Ryan, [SIZE=2]your post appears to be full of revisionist history.[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Verdana][SIZE=2] [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Verdana]One of the distinctions at the heart of Open Gaming was between competitive products and competitive systems. Open Gaming was meant to reduce the market footprint of the latter, but was all for encouraging the former. Yes... you read that right: Open Gaming was meant to encourage competition. Why, you[/FONT][FONT=Verdana][SIZE=2] as[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Verdana]k? Strangely, even though it is no longer the Party Line, this information is available on WOTC's own website! Here's an excerpt:[/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][SIZE=2]Open gaming, contrary to what you are saying, Mr. Ryan, was meant to encourage competition. Open gaming theorized that the more people who were actively into hobby gaming, the more revenue WOTC would harvest. Because D&D is the most popular role playing game, it benefits from the success even of competing products, because gamers as a whole tend to buy D&D stuff. A few will not, but overall D&D revenues are directly proportional to overall role playing revenues.[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana] [/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=2][FONT=Verdana]This competition also ultimately grows the D&D brand. Why? Because as the amounts of supporting products become increasingly vast, the market becomes more resistant to alternate game systems. They have enough to choose from already![/FONT] [/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana] [/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][SIZE=2]Then there's another part of the competition equation:[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana] [/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][SIZE=2]See, rather than WOTC feeling annoyed when small-timers showed them up in terms of quality, WOTC was supposed to be overjoyed that someone else came up with an innovation that they can now incorporate [I]for free[/I]![/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana] [/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][SIZE=2]Dancey goes on to mention that there is even a simpler version of the game, a "rules-light" version as Tweet put it, that can be constructed. He says the game can be extended to other genres, and it could even be made diceless. WOTC might experiment with some of these things, "[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Verdana][SIZE=2]or other people may choose to invest the time and energy to do so".[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana] [/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][SIZE=2]I think it's inappropriate to blame the so-called "glut" for the collapse of hobby stores, expecially with gasoline over 4 dollars a gallon. Game stores have collapsed out of poor business sense maybe (but in my opinion anybody who orders 500 copies of "OGL Chimney Sweeps" is going to go out of business eventually anyway)... but it's as much the economy as anything else. When people tighten the belt, it obviously gets tightened around luxuries.[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][SIZE=2]Nevertheless, any "glut" as I assume you well know is a short-term problem. Sure... 1,000 startups come up with 1,000 different products. Most of them tank and the good ones rise to the top. That's called capitalism. In the long run, it's supposed to produce a body of superior product through an evolutionary process.[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][SIZE=2]And if you'll look closely at the above quote, WOTC was supposed to take advantage of that evolution as well to incorporate innovations in their own products.[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][SIZE=2]Myself, I think that if Open Gaming failed at all it was because too many changes were made to the core of the D&D game. D&D tried to become too much like Gurps and ended being overcomplicated and cumbersome for some people. A lot of people like lighter games and a lot of people liked the assumptions native to the older editions of D&D that were cast aside. So in a sense Open Gaming started off on the wrong foot because it stated up front that D&D was so successful because it was so popular and familiar, but right out of the gate they made changes that ended up (a few years down the road, for many of us) alienating a lot of the core audience.[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][SIZE=2] [/SIZE][/FONT] [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*TTRPGs General
Green Ronin not signing GSL (Forked Thread: Doing the GSL. Who?)
Top