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Message: <blockquote data-quote="molonel" data-source="post: 3425646" data-attributes="member: 10412">Except, it's not a fallacy.There are no "move quietly" abilities laid out in 1st Edition. None. You know EXACTLY how quietly any character with dex and armor or no armor can move in 3rd Edition. It's an opposed check, and success isn't a percentage chance. It depends on the acuteness of the senses of the listener. I've seen PLENTY of non-rogues and non-rangers succeed in opposed checks while moving silently.A tree is generally DC 10 or DC 15. Who says a fighter can't climb that?It is simply false that ALL fighters can hide, sneak and climb in earlier editions, while in 3E they cannot. They is demonstratably false.Secondary skills? You mean that random list in the front of the DMG with no descriptions? Where you rolled percentile dice to see if your character was a forester or a pastry chef?Heh.Yeah, whatever.Actually, the arguments do hold up.</blockquote>