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Message: <blockquote data-quote="AFGNCAAP" data-source="post: 1142019" data-attributes="member: 871">I have to agree--I think a fair amount of these common elements, to some degree or another, exist in the pre-existing literature of the time.  Not all of them exist in every source, but it does feel that more "default" D&D settings like Greyhawk & Forgotten Realms incorporates a lot of them.And I do know that, if you really examine the comparisons made, then they will be different.  However, what I'm suggesting is that if you look at the general core concept of these elements, leaving out the details, there are a good number of similarities.Just to reaffirm a point: this thread is not, in any way, shape, form, or intent, meant to serve as kindling for a flame war.  It's just meant for a discussion of examining recurrent themes and concepts in D&D games, mainly referring to 2 of the big settings for that game (GH & FR).Though IRL a lot of the major cities are next to some body of water, Greyhawk & Waterdeep, to a degree, hearken back to Leiber's Lankhmar--a coastal city-state that contained countless cultures and oddities of Nehwon.The mix-&-match pantheons of FR & GH also hearken back to Lankhmar--where the Street of the Gods hosts countless faiths from various lands.  The roots & mythological structure that the faith's deity is a part of aren't delved into, either.  Aarth, Kos, Mog the Spider-God, Death, Issek of the Jug, Hate, the Red God, Skama, Tyaa, and Ilthmar's Rat God are all Nehwon's gods, though they aren't part of the same mythology, nor do they come from the same cultures.The benevolent (or at least non-malevolent) powerful wizard isn't new either.  Merlin is a great example, though he is an advisor to the king (Azoun & Vangerdahast (sp?) matched the Arthur-Merlin template).  Gandalf is the prime example of the independant wizard who helps the heroes, though Leiber's Sheelba of the Eyeless Face & Ningauble of the Seven Eyes also fit the bill (though, like Mordenkainen, there aren't necessarily "good").  Ursula K. LeGuin's Ged/Sparrowhawk also fits the bill.As for the "nation of evil," Mordor is the most obvious source.  I'm not just talking about an enemy nation, who may or may not be "evil," per se, but truly evil.  Mordor was controlled by Sauron, much like Iuz rules Iuz.What of the tomb, ruin, dungeon, or underground realm, the "underworld"?  Tolkien had the Mines of Moria; Ged faced the Tombs of Atuan; Lankhmar Below with its rat hordes threatened Lankhmar above, while Quarmall (from "The Lords of Quarmall") was a wicked, decadent underground realm where various nobles foguht for power (sorta sounds like the drow, in a way).  Along those lines, there is the endless Underdark, Undermountain, & the dungeons of Castle Greyhawk, at least.But, though these sources may have some of the elements, IIRC, they don't necessary have all of them like D&D does.  Middle-Earth has the evil nation, the "underworld," and the wandering wizard, but doesn't really have the "worldly" city-state with its thieves' guild.  Middle-Earth's cosmology is a single, well-connected mythos, not the mix-&-match of various gods, deified mortals, infernal/otherworldly beings, and worshipped dead found in the pulp sword-&-sorcery fantasy of Leiber & Howard.  Nehwon has the "worldly" city-state of Lankhmar, the "underworld" of Quarmall, and the independant wizards Sheelba & Ningauble, but it doesn't really have the "evil nation."  Neither Leiber or Howard's works contain nations of elves, dwarves, or the like, but then again, Tolkien's work isn't rife with hidden, "forgotten," exotic tribes or folk.IMHO, D&D does have all of these things, mashed together into one: the "worldly/decadent" metropolis; the "evil nation"; the powerful, independent, helpful wizard; the "underworld"; the evil mage/priest; the demihuman nations; the hidden, exotic races; the hodge-podge of gods; the thieves' guild; & countless other elements.  Both of them even have histories of great & powerful nations, magical ones at that (IIRC), which collapsed: FR with Netheril, & GH with Suel & the Rain of Colorless Fire (a popular historical event for settings, too--DL had the Cataclysm, while Scarred Lands has the Titanswar).Yet, the key thing is that D&D doesn't necesssarily have to have it this way.  FR could have easily had elves without an Evermeet or elven courts.  It could have not had Elminster.  It could have had a single, unified, well-integrated pantheon of deities.  Along the same lines, Greyhawk could have easily not have had the nation of Iuz.  It could have not had a Thieves' Guild in Greyhawk.  It could have not had the deified Iuz or St. Cuthbert.Of course, not all settings for D&D fit this mold (obviously), but 2 of the most popular settings and, dare I say, most identified with D&D, do fit this mold.I'm sure popularity has a lot to do with it, but still, why the similar core elements?  Couldn't FR have proven to be just as popular, if not more so, than GH without the similarities?Just wondering.  Like I said, this thread isn't intended to fan flames or enflame passions, but just note similarities.</blockquote>

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