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<blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 8237692" data-attributes="member: 6801228">One thing that really bothers me about this theoritical approach is that it has nothing to do with Greyhawk and everything to do with the differences between 5e and 1st/2nd edition. Like, look for a brief moment at the Scout from 5e. If we just look at their number of attacks, they are likely close to being a level 5 warrior. A spy is a multiclassed fighter thief from this angle. These people are supposed to be POWERFUL individuals if you use this metric. Nearly lords of the land themselves. They are low CR mooks hired by more important people. A Scout is literally a military reconnaissance scout, not someone of renown. Look at the Archer from Volo's, they are basically a level 5 battlemaster... and they are a faceless mook with low-quality gear. Swashbuckler? Same deal. 5e is just not set up with the expectation that people who reach level 8 are national heroes with few peers. The bandits are led by a guy who is nearly as good as you are, with two archer bodyguards and a group of their normal bandit buddies can be the match or more for a group of even level 5 or 6 adventurers. And this is completely ignoring spellcaster NPCs who are presented as far far more powerful than that. Each of the basic wizards in Volo's are 9th level spellcasters. The game isn't signalling that these people are ruling cities and running guilds, this is a generic statblock for when your enemy has a spellcaster in their group. So, if you want to make 9th level a pinnacle of power that is hard to surpass... you need to basically break with 5e assumptions.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Chaosmancer, post: 8237692, member: 6801228"] One thing that really bothers me about this theoritical approach is that it has nothing to do with Greyhawk and everything to do with the differences between 5e and 1st/2nd edition. Like, look for a brief moment at the Scout from 5e. If we just look at their number of attacks, they are likely close to being a level 5 warrior. A spy is a multiclassed fighter thief from this angle. These people are supposed to be POWERFUL individuals if you use this metric. Nearly lords of the land themselves. They are low CR mooks hired by more important people. A Scout is literally a military reconnaissance scout, not someone of renown. Look at the Archer from Volo's, they are basically a level 5 battlemaster... and they are a faceless mook with low-quality gear. Swashbuckler? Same deal. 5e is just not set up with the expectation that people who reach level 8 are national heroes with few peers. The bandits are led by a guy who is nearly as good as you are, with two archer bodyguards and a group of their normal bandit buddies can be the match or more for a group of even level 5 or 6 adventurers. And this is completely ignoring spellcaster NPCs who are presented as far far more powerful than that. Each of the basic wizards in Volo's are 9th level spellcasters. The game isn't signalling that these people are ruling cities and running guilds, this is a generic statblock for when your enemy has a spellcaster in their group. So, if you want to make 9th level a pinnacle of power that is hard to surpass... you need to basically break with 5e assumptions. [/QUOTE]

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