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Message: <blockquote data-quote="KenHood" data-source="post: 1472805" data-attributes="member: 4413">I disagree with this conclusion. Having played for many years under similar rules-sets with high degrees of lethality, I have not felt a "GM v. Players" concept. "GM v. Players" is an attitude, not a rule. If the GM is the insecure sort who needs to demonstrate superiority over others by killing their characters, then he or she shall do so regardless of rules set. If the GM is the sort who wishes everyone to enjoy themselves, then he or she will do so regardless of the rules set. Rules cannot enforce an attitude. Much like law cannot change the heart. ---An aside comment...I think many of us have had an experience with a jackass GM who wanted nothing more than to harm his players. I think many of us can see the obvious potential for such a GM to abuse these rules and use it for TPK's and the like. But that's not a fault of the rules, it's a fault of the person.The best way to avoid this sort of abuse is to ask oneself, "Why in the hell I am hanging out with a jerk like this and letting them make me miserable?"It's funny, but sad, how players and GM's can enter the same cycle of codependence as wives and husbands.  You are making an assumption that use of these rules make a game uninteresting. Interest lies in the players and the GM, not the rules set. I think many of us can attest to playing wonderful, interesting games with horrible sets of rules -- usually created by ourselves! I think many of us can also attest to boring games with the best rules sets. I think it's more likely said that most RPG's -- by their nature -- do not have heroic action. Heroism occurs when one strives against real, personal danger and demonstrates personal sacrifice for the betterment of others. In most RPG's, there is no real, personal danger for PC's. They know how much damage they can suffer. They do not think twice about receiving a blow from a sword or a shot from a bow. They know what probability their attacks will strike. They know the general proportion of damage from their opponents and the likelihood of saving throws. There is no real danger, because the PC's know the general outcome of their actions.How is it heroic to engage in a battle that you know has a threat level artificially arranged to be a commensurate challenge to your abilities, and that if you expend 25% of your resources, you should be able to win?As to personal sacrifice, consider this: In RPG's, PC's fight to accumulate personal power and wealth. Levels are power. XP's are power. Every gold piece, every magical item is an accumulation of power. Even when PC's come into a town to rescue the hapless villagers from the horrible monster, their ultimate (unspoken) concern is their rewards in XP and goods at the end of the module. Sacrifice involves giving up something with no expectation of a return, but PC's expect a return: gold, magic items, XP!RPG's are sport, not heroism.The heroism is an illusion created by the storytelling of the GM and roleplaying of the players. You achieve that feeling with attitude, not rules. Consider this: Which is more heroic: facing a monster in a game knowing that under X circumstances, your character will always win, or facing a monster knowing that a bad dice roll could end up killing your character, despite weeks and months of development through play?---An aside comment...I think it's important that we don't confuse cinematic with heroic. People seem to use the two terms interchangeably, because heroic has more positive connotations. However, PC's in RPG's are often no more heroic than a bullet-proof superhero taking out bank robbers in a comic book. There's no real danger because of the certainty of outcome.In RPG's, there is certainty of success. Hence, the whole issue of game balance. PC's need to win, or at least have a reasonable certainty of success. Heroism occurs when you perform an action despite the certainty that you will come to harm or death.Nothing in these rules counters this statement. It seems that you're drawing a conclusion that PC's are no longer exceptional because their abilities do not function according to the status quo of the standard combat rules. In other words, because big things easily kill small things, the PC's are weak because they tend to be said small things. I disagree.It is true that PC's of equivalent level/hit dice to a Big Thing are at a disadvantage. PC's must achieve more levels before trying to take on large opponents, such as an ogre. However, this tends to reinforce the myth of the heroic ideal, rather than counter it. Consider: In the tales where a hero kills a giant, troll, or ogre, said hero is often heads-and-shoulders more powerful than the general population or receives some sort of divine dispensation. In the d20 system, this superiority to his fellow man is best reflected in a character's levels. Is a PC unexceptional because he possesses several more levels than the NPC population? Is said PC unexceptional because he can defeat large opponents by virtue of these levels? Is he unexceptional because he requires training and perseverance to achieve the power to accomplish such a superhuman feat as slaying a giant?I'm not sure how you have drawn this conclusion from the rules-set. This seems more an expression of your personal preferrences, rather than an application of the rules. RPG's -- by their very nature -- are egomaniacal fantasies for players. In these sollipsistic realities, players are the prime movers and shakers. Nothing occurs in the fantasy world apart from their exploits. What occurs "off stage" occurs "off stage." It's just window dressing for the player's activities.Very good. Such a thing should have happened with that variant.No offense taken. I likewise hope that you've taken no offense to my attempts to counter your arguments. No ire is intended. I feel no hostility, only a desire for discourse.Everyone is entitled to their preferrence. As I've stated many times, the rules are not meant for everyone. If they do not fit your needs and desires, do not use them.I appreciate that you've given them a try and revealed the results of your experimentation.</blockquote>

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