[Grim Tales + d20 CoC] Cthulhu Mythos skill houserule?

[Turanil]

Well, as told on my d20 CoC Dreamland Campaign thread, I intend to run a Grim Tales + CoC d20 game. Grim Tales for having better PCs, a different magic and horror system, and so a more "pulpy" feel.

My problem with CoC GT however, is about the Cthulhu Mythos skill. Since I will use the Grim Tales rules for horror and insanity, which don't use a number of Sanity Points, I must find something else. What I am doing in this post is trying to determine if I keep the Cthulhu Mythos skill as in d20 CoC (which I don't like), or if I come up with a houserule. But I would like to hear your comments and suggestions for this houserule.

d20 CoC Cthulhu Mythos skill becomes a Knowledge (Cthulhu Mythos) skill.

As such, now PCs need to spend skill-points in it to increase their number of ranks in it. However, to be able to spend skill-points in this skill, a PC needs to learn things about the Mythos in the usual fashion (get books, meet with Mythos horrors, etc.). So lets suppose the PCs find a book that can increase the Knowledge (Cthulhu Mythos) skill by 4 ranks. The Tough Investigator could only spend 2 skill points in it (due to its 2 sp/lvl), and will have to wait next level to finish studying that book. On the other hand, the Smart Investigator (with 8 sp/lvl) can spend up to 4 skill point in it but no more (since the book can only give up to 4 ranks). [Err... I mean he can spend up to 4 skill points if Knowledge (Cthulhu Mythos) is a core skill for him, otherwise up to 8 skill points.]

An now what about:

Core Skill? Lets come up with a new feat that gives the Knowledge (Cthulhu Mythos) skill as a "core skill" (always class skill from that point on), otherwise it is a cross class skill. Of course one can not have the feat at first level, but can only take the feat when encountering the Cthulhu mythos for the first time, and anytime thereafter.

Feats? Skill Focus with Knowledge (Cthulhu Mythos) is possible but requires to have a book (or other relevant source) to get the +3 ranks given by this feat. (So in the example given above, you could spend up to 1 or 2 skill points, then take the feat, to get up to 4 ranks thanks to that book.)

Sanity Loss? every time the character just reads about the Mythos he makes a normal horror check. If he learns about the Mythos (i.e.: spends skill points in it), he rolls an horror check but with a penalty equal to the total number of ranks he will have once he has spent these new skill points. [To those who want to know about GT horor check: roll a d20 + Wis modifier. The lowest the result the worst the outcome; i.e.: 20 = no effect while 1 = nasty long term insanity / mental disorder.]

Of course, I will have to come up with a table of DC examples for knowing recognizing things while using the Knowledge (Cthulhu Mythos) skill. Maybe I could also give a +2 synergistic bonus to casting a spell for having 5 or more ranks in the Knowledge (Cthulhu Mythos) skill?

So any comments?

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

An now what about:

Core Skill? Lets come up with a new feat that gives the Knowledge (Cthulhu Mythos) skill as a "core skill" (always class skill from that point on), otherwise it is a cross class skill. Of course one can not have the feat at first level, but can only take the feat when encountering the Cthulhu mythos for the first time, and anytime thereafter.

This is the way to go. It's almost the same as acquiring the Spellcraft skill.

You might even allow players to buy ranks in Cthulhu Mythos before they get the feat-- it's just that until then, it's cross class.

Sanity Loss? every time the character just reads about the Mythos he makes a normal horror check. If he learns about the Mythos (i.e.: spends skill points in it), he rolls an horror check but with a penalty equal to the total number of ranks he will have once he has spent these new skill points. [To those who want to know about GT horor check: roll a d20 + Wis modifier. The lowest the result the worst the outcome; i.e.: 20 = no effect while 1 = nasty long term insanity / mental disorder.]

Another good idea. I'd also tie the Horror Threshold roll to the source of the knowledge-- for example, reading from the King in Yellow isn't as bad as reading from the original Necronomicon.

Wulf

 

[Turanil]

Well, after reading some suggestion elsewhere, I thought this could be done not like a normal skill with a few restrictions placed on it (as I suggest above), but doing it more like a Bardic Knowledge ability, which is essentially what it is in the d20 CoC book anyway. Maybe it's a better way to handle things? I cannot decide on that right now though. Plus what I do prefer is probably not what players do prefer. Probably if skill-points could be spent on other skills, they would prefer not spend them on Knowledge (Cthulhu Mythos), especialy if it requires a feat to turn that skill into a core skill...

So, Bardic Knowledge adapted to the Cthulhu Mythos. I will have to add examples of DC sometimes later.

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CTHULHU MYTHOS KNOWLEDGE

An investigator involved with the Mythos eventually picks up a lot of stray dark knowledge while reading forbidden tomes and meeting with alien things "man was not meant to know". He may make a special Cthulhu Mythos Knowledge check with a bonus equal to his Intelligence modifier to see whether he knows some relevant information about creatures, legendary items, or noteworthy places related to the Cthulhu Mythos. If the character has 5 or more ranks in the Knowledge (arcana / occult) skill, he gains a +2 bonus on this check. The character's competence in Cthulhu Mythos Knowledge can only augment if he reads tomes and is involved in events related to the Cthulhu Mythos. He must first understand its real signification in succedding an Intelligence check at DC= 10 + his number of ranks in this knowledge ability. If he succeeds, he gains the number of Cthulhu Mythos ranks given by the book or the event.

A successful Cthulhu Mythos Knowledge check will not reveal the powers of a magic item but may give a hint as to its general function. An investigator (or cultist) may not take 10 or take 20 on this check; this sort of knowledge is essentially random. The GM can determine the difficulty class of the check by referring to the table below.

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What would you prefer as a player? What you see more "logical" (gamewise)? As a true skill but with limitations, or as a sort of Bardic Knowledge?

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

What would you prefer as a player? What you see more "logical" (gamewise)? As a true skill but with limitations, or as a sort of Bardic Knowledge?

If you want to go this route, just use the Obscure Knowledge Talent that is already in Grim Tales rulebook.

You could rename it so it is its own specific Cthulhu Mythos thing, but the mechanics are there.


Wulf

 

[HeapThaumaturgist]

As a player, probably Bardic Knowledge, I think.

Mythos Knowledge always sort of seemed to be a PUNISHMENT as much as anything else, actually. Because once you understand it, you're so much more likely to lose MORE sanity.

It's hard to say. CoC characters usually all have some ranks in Mythos Knowledge. I doubt many people would willingly spend ranks and feats on something that makes it more likely that they'll go nuts.

--fje

 

[Turanil]

If you want to go this route, just use the Obscure Knowledge Talent that is already in Grim Tales rulebook.

You could rename it so it is its own specific Cthulhu Mythos thing, but the mechanics are there.

Ah sorry, but I disagree concerning Obscure Knowledge. First it's a talent, thus available only at certain levels; and moreover a Smart only talent. Then, it adds the Smart's level to the the die check. Everything that doesn't fit with Cthulhu Mythos Knowledge that is not supposed to require a talent, must be available to everybody, and only increases in reading books of forbidden knowledge, not automatically per level.

I will have to take a decision, and probably the best way is to go close to the d20 CoC rules (which have maybe been playtested?), rather than modify everything. Yet I have a fondness for making it a "normal" skill (as in the first post). :\

 

[HeapThaumaturgist]

If you make it a normal skill, give them ranks in it by "awarding" them instead of offering the opportunity to take them. But also have reading any tome or experiencing any situation that would award Mythos call for a Horror check. How I've done it in the past when I add touches of CoC to my Modern games. (Because I just can't leave the mythos out of anything I do ... )

--fje

 

[Turanil]

Indeed, reading a forbidden tome (Necronomicon, etc.) calls for a horror check, with a penalty relevant to the book read.

Now all the problem is to know what this skill would provide to the players. My game will be less atrocious than a regular one, as it's more a pulp-Cthulhu with the investigators having talents and feats (where regular d20 CoC characters are rather weak). For example, magic Grim Tales way is easier than that of d20 CoC, even if it is still low magic. In addition there is two kind of magic in my game: everything Cthulhu related = arcane; some religious magic = divine (the latter being NOT commonplace, but rare Tibetan Buddhist lamas or rare Jew with deep knowledge of Quabbalah). Hence, characters are less hopeless than in regular CoC games.

As such, I need to know what's the good of knowing about the Mythos to determine if it's gained "freely" in discovering and studying books (even if at risk for insanity). Or if players must pay in skill points for this knowledge. In the latter case I must remember to add frequent stuff like "As you succeed your Knowledge (Cthulhu Mythos) check, you remember than standing in the middle of a river protects you from being attacked by Shh'tath'vrugs". (Otherwise just hope your character has silver bullets in his gun...)

 

[Angel Tarragon]

Turanil, there a couple of feats from the Ravenloft Campaign Setting Book that you may wish to allow you players: Jaded & Open Minded.

Jaded
Like an experienced investigator you have been hardened against the horrors of the world by cruel experience.
Benefit: You gain a +4 bonus to all Horror saves.

Open Mind
An adaptable mind keeps your sanity reslient.
Benefit: You enjoy a +4 bonus to all Madness saves.

Of course for Cthulhu, the Open Mind feat would grant the player a +4 bonus to Sanity checks. Good luck constructing your campaign!

 

[Turanil]

Turanil, there a couple of feats from the Ravenloft Campaign Setting Book that you may wish to allow you players: Jaded & Open Minded.


Of course for Cthulhu, the Open Mind feat would grant the player a +4 bonus to Sanity checks. Good luck constructing your campaign!

I think the Jaded feat could be good. But I don't want it to lessen too easily the potential horror of the game. At least, to take it, one should have met with the Mythos a couple of times, and experienced some resultant insanity.