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Message: <blockquote data-quote="jedijon" data-source="post: 6693981" data-attributes="member: 49099">The quote "sorta wrapped up talking" is now officially double dumb <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />I meant it seemed like we'd moved on from Grimm mechanics to kid-game mechanics and not that we agreed 100% on our opinions regarding Grimm's mechanics. And you're doubly right - the next two posts [including MY OWN] had something to say about Grimm's mechanics...and those things were not 100% identical <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Crazy stuff!I walked far enough down the road with Grimm that I know I'm not going to play the ruleset. However, I'm now intrigued by whether it could be saved/vastly-improved/whathaveyou by...what exactly? Perhaps a simple change to the level resolution mechanic would do it? Again, I'm still not going to run the main mechanic for my kids. But would some changes rescue the fun of taking an action yet still keep the FEEL of the "you can be heroic...but mostly you're going to perform how you'd expect" core intact?Now [result on 1d6]1 [-1lvl], 2-5 [+0lvl], 6 [+1lvl, explodes on further sixes - stops on anything else]Proposed [result on 1d6]1-2 [roll 1d4 "fudge" die*], 3-5 [+0lvl], 6 [roll 3d6 "fudge" dice**]Terms*1d4 fudge die; 1-2 [-1lvl], 3-4 [+0lvl]**3d6 fudge dice; 1-2 [-1lvl], 3-4 [+0lvl], 5-6 [+1lvl]This still gives you a 1/6 shot at the lower end of your ORIGINAL die roll of performing poorly and caps "poorly" at -1 level. There is, however, greater possibility of success - a little more overall variability - with a touch of danger - when rolling a 6. You could lose or gain 3 levels. The bell curve is pretty tight, so you're mostly +/-1lvl. This reinforced the "you mostly do what you can do" but allows you enough of a possibility to succeed that you'd take that chance. Since losing several levels doesn't entail critical failure and only really matters on an opposed roll, it works OK.You could do the same thing but simpler [albeit slightly more at odds with the original ruleset and possibly the intentions of it as well...] by either A) 1-4 [+0lvl], 5-6 [2d6 fudge dice from -1 to +1] or B) 1-2 [1d4 fudge dice that are from -1 to 0 as per above] 3-4 [+0lvl], 5-6 [2d4 fudge dice that differ from the negative ones...and are +0 to +1]. The math is the best on that last one...but you need to be willing to accept a d4 working opposite whether it originated from the high or low side of the d6... <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f641.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":(" title="Frown    :("  data-smilie="3"data-shortname=":(" /> Whatever! Note only that you need MORE THAN ONE fudge dice to generate a curve. 3d6 makes a nice curve, 3d6 fudge dice...not quite so much, but we'll take it! It's the "mini me" of bell curves!I gotta see what Celebrim's SIPS system mechanics are. Very intrigued.As far as my unnamed d6 dice pool system goes...when you mention counting the pips the pros on that are it reinforces the number line (5 dots is > than 4 dots...because I'm sure I don't need to explain). If your kid gets the number line [as 4 year olds tend to do, not all of 'em...] then you can use dice with numbers and I'm going to posit that it's faster. My kids don't always correctly recognize the number of pips--as quick identification of pips is due more to recognizing the configuration [four at the corners, four at the corners but with a dot in the middle] than it is about counting them.As far as a 4 year old being completely lost in the d6 unnamed system vs SIPS - again, that's why I want to hear more about SIPS! However, comparing d20 vs d6 dice pool, it's 1 = 1 from a 4 year old perspective. The 7 year old, well we practiced a few rolls of the d6 dice pool and she's got it. For her I can say roll 4 dice needing 3 successes on 4+ and it's fine. She COULD also add +4 to her roll of 15 on a d20 and eventually tell me she got a 19...alternatively I could subtract her +4 bonus from the target AC/difficulty and give her the modified target value and she COULD ascertain whether her die meets/exceeds or fails...but good luck with skills & spells. Skills = reading/memorization and spells = lots of things, including rolling Xd8, Xd6, etc. I'd have to help her add those multiple dice together. Sounds like SIPS lacks most of these barriers so I love the sound of that! The 4 year old would probably think SIPS, d20, d6 dice pool, etc are all rocket science. For them I'd be playing the game no matter what. In d6 I'll say "what do you want to do", he'll say "stabby stabby", I'll say "let's roll your might pool [it's 4 dice] and look for dice bigger than 4 - oh, you only got 1 you fail OR oh you got 3 great job"... And if you can't communicate clearly in run-on sentences also poorly constructed God help ya! The only benefit to the d6 [assuming I'm playing the game in any of these 3 (or other) versions]...is that you said SIPS would have to drop skills and d6 dice pool doesn't have any! That's not really a selling point <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> It just means that I don't have a game whereas you do. Mine's just a system of mechanics, no more and no less.I did stop to calculate odds for the remaining mechanics and found that critical miss [miss when all dice rolled show 1s] starts at 17% [for a 1d6 pool] and effectively drops to zero by 5d6. A non-negligible chance of failure at 4d6 of 0.1% - and remember we're defining 4d6 as someone who's trained in that ability.For the critical success = 3 of a kind that are also successes for this roll...too wonky. Plus should your threshold drop to 3+ on a 4d6 pool you're already talking 7% chance...which is too high--and it shoots up pretty rapidly from there as things get easier/pools get bigger. A triplet of 5 OR 6 is a pretty happy place. The chance goes from 1% on a 3d6 pool (and of course 0% on a 1 or 2 dice pool--things that shouldn't happen to a character...) to 12% on a monstrously large 6d6 pool--that's a "godlike ability"...but if that gets too high then a triplet of 6s should still work well. Just divide those #s in half! It might go without saying, but my other adult participants LET ALONE the kids don't need to know A) the math behind pool/success/target or B) the mechanics for anything really. We'll start the game with some test rolls and scenarios - cross a narrow bridge...and outline the core mechanic, roll X dice looking for Y dice to be greater than Z. After that, we'll play some and I'll introduce luck and high/low criticals when the need arises. If the 4yr old plays, I'll handle the main mechanic for him and gloss right over the other 3 to keep it simple. That was a 5E design concept, right? That multiple people could be around the table all playing with rules modules of varying complexity. Boy how I hated that idea!!</blockquote>

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