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General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Grind-out fights, unconscious heroes, and retreat
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<blockquote data-quote="n00b f00" data-source="post: 6622713" data-attributes="member: 6795700"><p><strong>Executions sometimes good mostly not</strong></p><p>It mostly depends on the tastes of the table. For me there's a lot of situations where it makes sense for the monsters to go "I'm going to spend 4 turns killing this player while a close battle rages on 10 feet from me." If they're zombies, they are dumb and going to chew on a dude's face after he's dead unless they start getting poked. An assassin whose only objective is to kill one PC and run away. A crazed death cult, who are willing to eat a TPK of their own to end the lives of the PCs. They know they can't TPK the party, but they know they can focus fire one into oblivion. They're making the intelligent decision to handicap their chances, and ensure their own death by wailing on a downed PC.</p><p></p><p>Generally I think that most intelligent enemies are more likely to either flee or fight the moving threats than they are to execute a fool(the players aren't slapping downed goblins are they?). You're fighting some bandits, they drop the cleric in the same round a couple of their own get dropped. They can still win the fight if they go all out, and they can still get away if they start running now. But sitting there for 3 turns poking at the cleric while the warlock is plinking you with eldritch blast is a bad idea. But like you said, if an enemy has multiattack he drops you with his first hit, he has another, and no one else is in range. Well just sitting on it is just as dumb. Of course he slaps you, unless the GM is intentionally playing him dumb.</p><p></p><p>Like Miami Vice(2006, a chill but flawed movie) has some moments along these lines. In the middle of a fight two enemies are incapped but alive. There's a lull in the fighting and a bit of a standoff, during this lull they execute one of them as a display of power(a narrative moment when the combat had more or less resolved, and the only thing left was to sue for peace or die in a cool way). Some people are shot more times than was strictly needed, but it was when they were falling down(in the same turn). People in gunfights are shot at when wounded, because there's no other available targets or they're still actively shooting(using up the last of this turn's multi attacks if no one else is in range before moving on). But they never dead check writhing or unresponsive enemies when lead is passing right over their heads(slapping a PC for multiple turns in the middle of a fight). </p><p></p><p>That's what I'd expect from most intelligent enemies personally. There's always exceptions of course. Insane, vindictive, and/or incredibly stupid enemies. But they're exceptions. An intelligent enemy that doesn't use it's multi attacks correctly, or wastes turns on downed PCs as a rule feels like the GM metagaming. Which is fine, if you want to swing it one way or the other that's totally cool. If you want to have it where the PCs all escape no strings attached with their wounded and dead when they say "We escape". Or have them just straight up die when they hit 0 hitpoints. Cool man, if that's what your table enjoys then go for it. But I in general I don't expect the bandit to bash the one incapped PC while his friends are being murdered 10 feet from him.</p><p></p><p><strong>How to make them run instead</strong></p><p>If you want to incentivise retreating in general. I'd consider making it easier to retreat. The roll initiative as a group then apply dex bonus, is a good houserule that makes retreat easier in general. Let PCs throw open health potions at incapped PCs with disadvantage. Tell the healers to take ranged heals. Have the NPCs threaten to murder an incapped NPC if they don't retreat or surrender(how many times do the badguys tell the villain to drop the gun or have their sidekicked murdered). Have the NPCs offer a trade of each others' wounded/dead. Or have them regroup to catch their breath if they are in control of a tough fight, ostensibly because they don't want to take pointless losses by not properly leveraging their superior fighting power(if reinforcements are streaming in, why not disengage and wait for them to catch up, why risk taking the barbarian straight up) heal up a bit and catch their breaths, but actually to give the PCs a chance to get back on their feet and say "We need to run or die." A cutscene where you take away the main reason for them refusing to run and basically leave the likely tpk in their hands, because the tide is turning and the fight is resource wise tougher now than before the break.</p><p></p><p>That might sound overly soft, but it'll make retreating a realistic and attractive option, giving you the chase scenes you want to run. And it makes it less likely that some particularly stubborn players say "Well now we HAVE to kill them, for revenge or to resurrect/rob the dead guy." And of course, you can use the carrot and the stick if you so choice, going back and forth on a whim depending on your mood and the feel of the table. You can always slap incapped players with a level of exhaustion if you wanna make them progressively pay for incaps, without going super lethal.</p><p></p><p>When I'm GMing and things get out of hand I'll generally just say "You will almost definitely die if you don't retreat," and if they agree shift into a chase scene or them escaping, but I am a man without tack. Those events are unplanned, and this is easily the most thought I've put into chase scenes. Before this topic I've always considered resolving it almost entirely divorced from the combat rules the most natural situation. "Roll charisma to confuse them, roll strength to pick up Ellaria, everyone make dex checks to see how far you get away," mixxed in with some narrative descriptions and suggestions from the players of how they try to get away. Or I just say "you get away" when I think it'd be more interesting to get to how they respond to this failure or just want to keep up the pace.</p><p></p><p>Either way I hope it all works out.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="n00b f00, post: 6622713, member: 6795700"] [B]Executions sometimes good mostly not[/B] It mostly depends on the tastes of the table. For me there's a lot of situations where it makes sense for the monsters to go "I'm going to spend 4 turns killing this player while a close battle rages on 10 feet from me." If they're zombies, they are dumb and going to chew on a dude's face after he's dead unless they start getting poked. An assassin whose only objective is to kill one PC and run away. A crazed death cult, who are willing to eat a TPK of their own to end the lives of the PCs. They know they can't TPK the party, but they know they can focus fire one into oblivion. They're making the intelligent decision to handicap their chances, and ensure their own death by wailing on a downed PC. Generally I think that most intelligent enemies are more likely to either flee or fight the moving threats than they are to execute a fool(the players aren't slapping downed goblins are they?). You're fighting some bandits, they drop the cleric in the same round a couple of their own get dropped. They can still win the fight if they go all out, and they can still get away if they start running now. But sitting there for 3 turns poking at the cleric while the warlock is plinking you with eldritch blast is a bad idea. But like you said, if an enemy has multiattack he drops you with his first hit, he has another, and no one else is in range. Well just sitting on it is just as dumb. Of course he slaps you, unless the GM is intentionally playing him dumb. Like Miami Vice(2006, a chill but flawed movie) has some moments along these lines. In the middle of a fight two enemies are incapped but alive. There's a lull in the fighting and a bit of a standoff, during this lull they execute one of them as a display of power(a narrative moment when the combat had more or less resolved, and the only thing left was to sue for peace or die in a cool way). Some people are shot more times than was strictly needed, but it was when they were falling down(in the same turn). People in gunfights are shot at when wounded, because there's no other available targets or they're still actively shooting(using up the last of this turn's multi attacks if no one else is in range before moving on). But they never dead check writhing or unresponsive enemies when lead is passing right over their heads(slapping a PC for multiple turns in the middle of a fight). That's what I'd expect from most intelligent enemies personally. There's always exceptions of course. Insane, vindictive, and/or incredibly stupid enemies. But they're exceptions. An intelligent enemy that doesn't use it's multi attacks correctly, or wastes turns on downed PCs as a rule feels like the GM metagaming. Which is fine, if you want to swing it one way or the other that's totally cool. If you want to have it where the PCs all escape no strings attached with their wounded and dead when they say "We escape". Or have them just straight up die when they hit 0 hitpoints. Cool man, if that's what your table enjoys then go for it. But I in general I don't expect the bandit to bash the one incapped PC while his friends are being murdered 10 feet from him. [B]How to make them run instead[/B] If you want to incentivise retreating in general. I'd consider making it easier to retreat. The roll initiative as a group then apply dex bonus, is a good houserule that makes retreat easier in general. Let PCs throw open health potions at incapped PCs with disadvantage. Tell the healers to take ranged heals. Have the NPCs threaten to murder an incapped NPC if they don't retreat or surrender(how many times do the badguys tell the villain to drop the gun or have their sidekicked murdered). Have the NPCs offer a trade of each others' wounded/dead. Or have them regroup to catch their breath if they are in control of a tough fight, ostensibly because they don't want to take pointless losses by not properly leveraging their superior fighting power(if reinforcements are streaming in, why not disengage and wait for them to catch up, why risk taking the barbarian straight up) heal up a bit and catch their breaths, but actually to give the PCs a chance to get back on their feet and say "We need to run or die." A cutscene where you take away the main reason for them refusing to run and basically leave the likely tpk in their hands, because the tide is turning and the fight is resource wise tougher now than before the break. That might sound overly soft, but it'll make retreating a realistic and attractive option, giving you the chase scenes you want to run. And it makes it less likely that some particularly stubborn players say "Well now we HAVE to kill them, for revenge or to resurrect/rob the dead guy." And of course, you can use the carrot and the stick if you so choice, going back and forth on a whim depending on your mood and the feel of the table. You can always slap incapped players with a level of exhaustion if you wanna make them progressively pay for incaps, without going super lethal. When I'm GMing and things get out of hand I'll generally just say "You will almost definitely die if you don't retreat," and if they agree shift into a chase scene or them escaping, but I am a man without tack. Those events are unplanned, and this is easily the most thought I've put into chase scenes. Before this topic I've always considered resolving it almost entirely divorced from the combat rules the most natural situation. "Roll charisma to confuse them, roll strength to pick up Ellaria, everyone make dex checks to see how far you get away," mixxed in with some narrative descriptions and suggestions from the players of how they try to get away. Or I just say "you get away" when I think it'd be more interesting to get to how they respond to this failure or just want to keep up the pace. Either way I hope it all works out. [/QUOTE]
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