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<blockquote data-quote="MrMyth" data-source="post: 5180011" data-attributes="member: 61155"><p>I think you would rightly need to make a poll about that before getting to absolutely declare that everyone else is incorrect about those issues. Many people in 3.5 clearly had these issues, even if many others found ways to mitigate or avoid them.</p><p> </p><p>For my group, the two biggest issues were the buffing itself, along with the level of adjustments some buffs made. Even if you didn't need to track durations in combat, I saw times when it would take 20 or 30 minutes to figure out buffs at the start of the day, or before 'kicking in the door'. I saw it regularly in mid-high level play in Living Greyhawk. How relevant it is now or not, I really don't think you get to declare that there is strictly "no comparison". </p><p>No comparison.</p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>I'll note that of those durations, the <em>vast </em>majority are "until the end of user's next turn" and "save ends". </p><p> </p><p>Similarly... as a buff-based cleric in LG, I know that durations required a lot more tracking than you are claiming. Sure, if you actually had a DM who literally hand-waved away the durations, but at that point you are essentially getting into house rules. </p><p> </p><p>Look, I'm not arguing that grind is non-existent in 4E. But I think you are exaggerating some of the issues to support a pre-determined point. Sure, a DM should avoid having an encounter of all insubstantial creatures, or make sure that every monsters doesn't have at-will weakens or stuns. But I don't think you will stumble into such encounters on a regular basis, and the amount of work you need to do to fix it when you do is relatively small. Stating the DM needs to "go out of his way to pre-analyze each encounter" is a bit much, I'd say. </p><p> </p><p>I do hear you regarding being able to hand out some 'emergency buttons' for the PCs - though I've found myself largely successful just using some higher level consumables or unique favors or the like. Of course, my players also blow through things quickly enough that they rarely need such things... or, even if they might, have a tendency to save them anyway.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="MrMyth, post: 5180011, member: 61155"] I think you would rightly need to make a poll about that before getting to absolutely declare that everyone else is incorrect about those issues. Many people in 3.5 clearly had these issues, even if many others found ways to mitigate or avoid them. For my group, the two biggest issues were the buffing itself, along with the level of adjustments some buffs made. Even if you didn't need to track durations in combat, I saw times when it would take 20 or 30 minutes to figure out buffs at the start of the day, or before 'kicking in the door'. I saw it regularly in mid-high level play in Living Greyhawk. How relevant it is now or not, I really don't think you get to declare that there is strictly "no comparison". No comparison. I'll note that of those durations, the [I]vast [/I]majority are "until the end of user's next turn" and "save ends". Similarly... as a buff-based cleric in LG, I know that durations required a lot more tracking than you are claiming. Sure, if you actually had a DM who literally hand-waved away the durations, but at that point you are essentially getting into house rules. Look, I'm not arguing that grind is non-existent in 4E. But I think you are exaggerating some of the issues to support a pre-determined point. Sure, a DM should avoid having an encounter of all insubstantial creatures, or make sure that every monsters doesn't have at-will weakens or stuns. But I don't think you will stumble into such encounters on a regular basis, and the amount of work you need to do to fix it when you do is relatively small. Stating the DM needs to "go out of his way to pre-analyze each encounter" is a bit much, I'd say. I do hear you regarding being able to hand out some 'emergency buttons' for the PCs - though I've found myself largely successful just using some higher level consumables or unique favors or the like. Of course, my players also blow through things quickly enough that they rarely need such things... or, even if they might, have a tendency to save them anyway. [/QUOTE]
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